Author Topic: Assistance with two Family crests  (Read 1449 times)

Offline notaninch

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Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« Reply #27 on: Thursday 06 July 17 20:16 BST (UK) »
In the phrase "temp. Queen Elizabeth," "temp." is from the Latin tempus, or "time" (as in the phrase tempus fugit, "time flies." It's shorthand for "in the time of Queen Elizabeth."

Grantees of Arms to the End of the 17th Century (Foster) (1915) states that this coat of arms (with a mullet for difference) was confirmed in 1603, possibly by William Segar, then Norroy King of Arms, to William, younger son of John Peneyfather,* of Barton under Needwood, Staffordshire. I have attached a scan of the entry from the book. So the undifferenced arms would have been granted sometime previous to 1603 to John Peneyfather.

David


* Spelling was not as fixed back then as it is now. Indeed, in my own family tree, among the Bigelow branch in the 17th and early 18th Centuries, I have found spellings ranging from Biglo to Biguloh to Biggalough (and even Baguley). And even in the 19th Century, American humorist Mark Twain once said that he could have no respect for a man who couldn't think of more than one way to spell a word.

David,

Thanks again for the help. I suspected it was Latin for in the time of but I don't take anything for granted especially heraldry. This family is really throwing some challenges my way. What I don't quite get is William Penyfather of London claimed he was Lord Mayor when he was merely an alderman and then he lasted days before being fined 410 which in those days was a tidy sum of money. His father also named William left Staffordshire and moved to London. He was an ironmonger who allegedly made a fortune.  Now from what I understand William the elder was the younger brother of John. Clearly William the younger appears to have either told the King of Arms porkie pies or the King of Arms misinterpreted the information or got it wrong or simply swallowed the line of William the younger and I may never discover which is absolutely correct.

Cheers
David

What I did not include in my previous reply is that in 1634 the coat of arms was confirmed and it is then that William the younger made the  claim to having been Lord Mayor of London. But I still think he was economical about his true relationship to John who I believe was his uncle i.e. John being the eldest brother of William the Elder. I am almost 100% certain there was a third brother Thomas who was the 2nd born hence why William the Elder the 3rd son had a mullet for difference on the Arms.

Take Care

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Offline notaninch

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Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« Reply #28 on: Friday 21 July 17 12:30 BST (UK) »
In the phrase "temp. Queen Elizabeth," "temp." is from the Latin tempus, or "time" (as in the phrase tempus fugit, "time flies." It's shorthand for "in the time of Queen Elizabeth."

Grantees of Arms to the End of the 17th Century (Foster) (1915) states that this coat of arms (with a mullet for difference) was confirmed in 1603, possibly by William Segar, then Norroy King of Arms, to William, younger son of John Peneyfather,* of Barton under Needwood, Staffordshire. I have attached a scan of the entry from the book. So the undifferenced arms would have been granted sometime previous to 1603 to John Peneyfather.

David


* Spelling was not as fixed back then as it is now. Indeed, in my own family tree, among the Bigelow branch in the 17th and early 18th Centuries, I have found spellings ranging from Biglo to Biguloh to Biggalough (and even Baguley). And even in the 19th Century, American humorist Mark Twain once said that he could have no respect for a man who couldn't think of more than one way to spell a word.

David,

Thanks again for the help. I suspected it was Latin for in the time of but I don't take anything for granted especially heraldry. This family is really throwing some challenges my way. What I don't quite get is William Penyfather of London claimed he was Lord Mayor when he was merely an alderman and then he lasted days before being fined 410 which in those days was a tidy sum of money. His father also named William left Staffordshire and moved to London. He was an ironmonger who allegedly made a fortune.  Now from what I understand William the elder was the younger brother of John. Clearly William the younger appears to have either told the King of Arms porkie pies or the King of Arms misinterpreted the information or got it wrong or simply swallowed the line of William the younger and I may never discover which is absolutely correct.

Cheers
David

What I did not include in my previous reply is that in 1634 the coat of arms was confirmed and it is then that William the younger made the  claim to having been Lord Mayor of London. But I still think he was economical about his true relationship to John who I believe was his uncle i.e. John being the eldest brother of William the Elder. I am almost 100% certain there was a third brother Thomas who was the 2nd born hence why William the Elder the 3rd son had a mullet for difference on the Arms.

Take Care
Hi David me again, hope you are well. Want to pick your brains. I have someone on the tree in Ireland who was granted a coat of arms. He had a distinguished military career in the Napoleonic wars. However he then died in 1823 aged 43. I can't actually find the date the arms were granted so I don't know if he was alive or the coat of arms were granted to him posthumously.

It states these were granted for use by him, his father and grandfather. Was this standard procedure in Ireland or was it a more flexible arrangement  dependent on an individual case by case basis. Hope I have explained this clearly (as mud).

Cheers

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Offline davidbappleton

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Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« Reply #29 on: Friday 21 July 17 14:55 BST (UK) »
It wasn't the standard practice to grant a coat of arms to an individual, his father, and his grandfather, but it wasn't unheard of, either.

You might try looking at the catalogues and databases held by the Genealogical Office (which includes the records of the Chief Herald of Ireland (CHI)) to see if your ancestor's name appears there. You could then write the CHI to obtain more information, if it's not already on-line in one of their digitized collections. The catalogues and database indexes can be found on the website of the National Library of Ireland at http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-catalogues-and-databases.aspx

David

Offline notaninch

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Re: Assistance with two Family crests
« Reply #30 on: Friday 21 July 17 18:06 BST (UK) »
It wasn't the standard practice to grant a coat of arms to an individual, his father, and his grandfather, but it wasn't unheard of, either.

You might try looking at the catalogues and databases held by the Genealogical Office (which includes the records of the Chief Herald of Ireland (CHI)) to see if your ancestor's name appears there. You could then write the CHI to obtain more information, if it's not already on-line in one of their digitized collections. The catalogues and database indexes can be found on the website of the National Library of Ireland at http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-catalogues-and-databases.aspx

David
Hi David - and Thanks
Yes it is there at the National Library. He got the arms 7 months before he died. In the summary it states the award is for him and his grandfather and adds descendants of his grandfather. I think I can get more detail from someone in Canada who I believe did follow this up but at the time I was in contact with them I was busy doing earlier research. 

Cheers