Author Topic: Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?  (Read 971 times)

Offline stevedownunder

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Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?
« on: Thursday 18 May 17 05:12 BST (UK) »
Really stuck and hope someone can give guidance.
Can't locate place of burial, date or place of birth or parent ID, hit a dead end  ???
Tobias Quin (Quinn) born 1750ish (London I think) and died 1801 (London), married Martha De Knight in 1779 (St Anne, Soho).
Catholic, 6 children baptised, Mary Anne, Sarah, John, James (my connection), Elizabeth, Charles.
Lived in Hammersmith London and operated a fishmongers in Haymarket for three generations.
Tobias and Martha signed with a mark on the church register at marriage so unable to write so unlikely to show in school records.
No military history that I know of.
Tobias may have had a brother Patrick, features in old Bailey records on murder charge - acquited.
I am located in New Zealand so site visits to parish churches etc is not an option.
Does anybody share any of these connections or could assist me in any way to get past this road block?

Offline goldie61

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Re: Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 18 May 17 06:34 BST (UK) »
Not sure if you have seen these. There are three mentions of him if you put his name in the search box.

On londonlives.org

https://www.londonlives.org/browse.jsp?id=persNamesmdsset_7_738&div=smdsset_7_738#highlight

This is the most exciting - lots of details about him and his life.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline stevedownunder

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Re: Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 18 May 17 08:10 BST (UK) »
WOW - WOW - WOW, how did you do that?
Firstly, I am simply amazed that i got a reply and then blown away that it is information that I have really struggled to find. We have extensive family history going back to Tobias but have been stuck getting past him to link back to the roots in Ireland.
So much thanks :)

Offline stevedownunder

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Re: Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 18 May 17 09:10 BST (UK) »
Many thanks for this info but it is taking a bit of working out.
Tobias married Martha in 1779 and they had 6 children, last born in 1793, so presumably they were still together at that time!!
I have Martha as dying in 1796, three years after the last baby.
Tobias was left with six children aged between 3 years and 16 years.
The document you directed me to says (I think) that Tobias hired himself and six others (his familly I presume) to Mary Fordham for lodgings, food and twelve guineas a year. I think it also says this occurred on the same year as his marriage to Martha - 1779, very confusing.
Tobias then married his landlord, Mary Fordham in 1796 (same year, and presumably after Marthas death). It says at the time of swearing that the children were "removed from St James", maybe in the poorhouse??
The son James, who was 9 when his mother died, went on to own and run a highly succesful fishmonger business, same business as his 'step mother' and by the 1841 census had a quality property in Hammersmith with servants??
How interesting. Somewhere in here is a complex story of relationships, business, and pragmatic decisions based on common interest. I am totally intrigued.
Steve


Offline Bookbox

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Re: Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 18 May 17 10:06 BST (UK) »
Just to explain ... the document is a record of an interview held in the parish of St Martin in the Fields, to determine if Tobias Quin had settlement rights there and was eligible for poor-law relief from the parish.

Quote
Tobias Quin aged 40 Years upon his Oath saith that he was while single and unmarried a Yearly hired Seven to Mrs Mary ffordham a ffishmonger the corner of Hungerford Street Strand in the Parish of St. Martin in the ffields ...

Seven is a mistranscription for Servant. Service for a year and a day ('a yearly hired servant'), with board and lodging, within the parish, was a standard qualification for settlement in any parish, and would have entitled him to consideration for poor-law relief.

Quote
... for the space of Three Years all under one hiring at the Yearly Wages of Twelve Guineas Diet & lodging & during all which Time he lodged in his said Mistresses house quitted the same in the year 1779 ...
This confirms that it was continuous employment (all under one hiring) for three years, from 1776 to 1779, with board and lodging.

Quote
... since which she hath not rented Ten Pounds by the Year not done any act to gain a subsequent Settlement ...
She must be a transcription error for he. If Tobias had paid rent of ten pounds/year in any other parish, it would have gained him settlement rights elsewhere, and would have disqualified him from receiving relief from St Martin’s.

Quote
... that he was married to his late Wife Martha at the Parish Church of SaintAnn Soho February 13th 1779 by whom he has issue Seven Children to wit Mary Maria Born December 8th/80 Sarah Born May 3d 4/82 John Born February 25th4/84 James Born July 17th/87 Thomas Born August 74/91 Charles Born July 21st/93 & Elizabeth Born December 21st4/90 for all now living ...

Seven children are listed, with birthdates 1780-1793, all living (though you say six?)

Quote
... & removed from St James ...
Tobias and children had been removed, under poor-law regulations, from the parish of St James Westminster to this parish of St Martin in the Fields, because he had no settlement rights in St James. St Martin’s is now shown to be their parish of legal settlement (children took their father's place of settlement until they gained another in their own right).

Quote
... Sworn this 27th Day of January 1795 before me John Collick Tobias Quin his Mark
Married to Mary at Christ Church Newgate St Novr 4/96
This is a subsequent marriage, in 1796 (added after the end of the examination), and it was to another Mary, not Mary Fordham. The marriage register for Christ Church Newgate was destroyed by bombing in 1940, so there is no original that can be viewed, only extracts and indexes. But the marriage is shown in Pallot’s Index to have been to a Mary Smith, who, like Tobias, was widowed.

I hope that helps.

Offline stevedownunder

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Re: Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 18 May 17 10:22 BST (UK) »
Bookbox, that is amazing work, thank you.
Clearly I have to learn old English style and terms to go much further, and also it seems, understand the working of the Parish welfare system, such as it was.
I read an entirely different meaning into the words and you shone light on the real meaning.
Tobias was clearly doing all he could to keep the family together during tough times and the success of at least some of his children later-on paid off.
The son James, as mentioned, became a successful fishmonger and his daughter Margaret married John Scott and together they started Scotts  Restaurant in Mayfair which still holds a high standing today and is one of the oldest restaurants in London.
Now to try and locate the link to Tobias' father, the name lawrance has been put about so i will start there.
I have a likely prospect in the same workhouse register, ID 43866 dated 2/3/1767 and perhaps an old Bailey reference putting him at the Horse & Dolphin Inn on Little St Martins street. Real detective stuff, how fantastic is the internet when put to useful purpose??

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 18 May 17 10:41 BST (UK) »
Clearly I have to learn old English style and terms to go much further, and also it seems, understand the working of the Parish welfare system, such as it was.
There's a thorough explanation of this on the Workhouses site ...
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/poorlaws/oldpoorlaw.shtml

Offline goldie61

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Re: Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 18 May 17 10:58 BST (UK) »
There are several entries on the londonlives site for Lawrence Quin/Quinn.
Hard to know if he is related to your Tobias - I haven't read them all, and even then there may be nothing to connect them.
One of them would seem to die in ST Martin's workhouse in 1767 - the same one Tobias was in 1795.
https://www.londonlives.org/browse.jsp?id=persName5smdswhr_438_43866&div=smdswhr_438_43866#highlight

I suspect you will have great fun looking at all the entries!

I see there are also images of the actual transcript of the trial involving Patrick at The Old Bailey on there if you haven't already got them.

HAve fun!  :)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline stevedownunder

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Re: Tobias Quin 1750ish - 1801, need help?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 19 May 17 00:03 BST (UK) »
thanks Goldie61.
Yes we have those transcripts, guilty if you ask me but as no witnesses were there he seems to have got away with it. From what we can gather he separated from the family after that matter so maybe those close to him knew the truth.
Another very interesting connection close to these people, and also shown on Old Bailey records is Mary Quinn (nee DeKnight) later remarried to Hayes. She was deported to Tasmania after being found guilty of receiving 1000 pound of stolen goods (in 1801!!!!) and also took her young daughter Martha, named after her Aunt - Tobias' wife Martha. On the voyage out to Tasmania Mary, still just 12 -13, jumped into bed with LT Bowen, the new (first) Govenor on his way out there, and ended up having 2 children to Bowen, the first white children born in Tasmania.
Mary went through a number of husbands along the way and became quite a personality and is remembered with a memorial in a park today.