ROBERT OWEN or OWENS - C1820 Llandudno - Baptism

[bendywendy]

Good afternoon Rootschatters
Was it the norm for couples north of Wales, Llandudno area to go over the border into Shropshire to marry 
As I cannot find a marriage for Robert's parents, close enough to first born William 1814 Baptism, then my search has taken me elsewhere and this is the only one I can find, except for the 2 marriages on above post, of 1804 & 1805:

Edward Owen  & Mary Jones
27 Jan 1812  @ St. Mary'S, Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England

I have found their deaths in Llanrhos Death Register:
Mary Owens, Nant y gamar, Llandudno, 7 April 1855 aged 65 yrs (c1790)
Edward Owen, Nant y gamar, 31 Jan 1862 aged 68 yrs (c1794)

In 1812 this would make Mary 22 yrs and Edward 26 yrs.

I was expecting to have found their marriage in Llanrhos or nearby etc..

Regards
Wend

[Glynm]

Hi

Be aware that there is a possibility that Robert could have changed his second name. Moving away from his patronymic name to the English surname which was becoming more common in the early part of the 19th C. I have found a couple of cases when researching my family tree. One was an Owen Owens who married in the Conwy Valley area in 1824. However by the time of the baptism of his third child in 1828 he had become Owen Evans.
Another ancestor John had a father called John Williams. On his marriage in 1821 John junior was called John Jones (Jones being the patronymic for John) but the following year at his daughter's baptism he had become John Williams taking his father's second name.

Glyn 

[bendywendy]

Thanks Glynn
I was wondering about patronymics for Edward Owen/s, who was Robert's father, the marriage I am searching for. I have found Robert's marriage to Margaret Price which took place in Liverpool and where they lived their lives out.

So how would I search for a marriage using patronymics: Edward Owen/s to a Mary Jones sometime before 1814 in Llanrhos area, where all their children were baptised ?
Research in Wales to this time frame and patronymics are all new to me and how would I know if Edward Owen/s had changed his name upon marriage ?

Wend

[Glynm]

Hi Wend
Patronymics can be a bit of a mine field. I had a look at Edward and Mary in the 1851 Census and see they were both born in Llandudno so there is a good chance they were also married in the same area. I had a look at the marriages for Edward around 1812/14 and the only one that came close was an Edward Owens who married a Mary Williams in the adjacent parish Llandrillo-yn-rhos in 1813. I might be wrong but I think the Llanrhos & Llandudno marriages may not be on line. The records are I believe held at Conwy Archive Service, Llandudno. The Clwyd FHS has transcription booklets http://clwydfhs.org.uk/

Sorry I cannot be of more help.

Glyn

[bendywendy]

Glynm,
Thank you so much for your help.
I have been searching through the images on FindMyPast for BMD in Caernovnshire, and Llanrhos marriages start at 1813, so I wonder if there was another register before this one that isn't transcribed by FindMyPast and elsewhere, I will contact Conwy Archives and Clwyd FHS and ask them.

I too found that marriage to a Mary Williams    I cannot remember now if it states Spinster etc., but I will have another look, she could have been married before ?
All baptism's for children note mother's name as Mary and only William with Jones as her surname.

1851 cen I note that her name Mary is written as Margaret    were/are both names intertwined.

I also cannot find a baptism for "dau" Jane c1835 and have wondered if she is maybe a "grandau" brought up as their own, seems strange that all other baptism's are noted but not her's. There is a baptism for a Jane c1835 to another couple, I will track that family and see if either/both parents died, could be she was "adopted".

Once again many thanks
Wend

[Jo Harding]

Hello bendywendy,

It might be worthwhile putting a post on this site:

http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/

It has a Genealogy Board and there are people (one in particular) who will search in the archives in Conwy voluntarily. You will see from some of the previous posts that this can be very helpful for genealogy specific to the Llandudno area.

Jo.

[bendywendy]

Thanks Jo, a job for this evening after plant watering is done.
Wend

[bendywendy]

Hello
Still awaiting approval for Three Towns Forum.

In meantime I have done a bit of research and found information relating to Edward Owen and Mary's children. This information was posted on rootsweb 2004-08 by Dorothea Lutz and she states the following:

* Edward Owen married Mary Williams, 30 April 1813 Llandrillo yn Rhos -which is the only one we have all found.
Edward's parents as Robert Owen and Mary Holland, Edward baptised 19 Aug 1792 Llanrhos.

* If William 1814 is their firstborn then maybe the marriage above is the correct one and Mary was Jones, as this is noted on William's baptism, maybe she took her father's forename or her mother's maiden name upon her marriage - is this feasible, as you know I am new to Welsh research this far back and with patrynomics ??

The information Dorothea Lutz states is in depth obtaining certificates and information relating to Nant y Gamar which Edward 1792 did rent and his dau Jane and her husband Elias Hughes took over the tenancy after Edwards' death.
Nant y Gamar remained in the Owen family on 1911 cen with son Edward, it would be interesting to know if the Owen family still reside there ?

It is the Robert Owen n Mary Holland and "son" Edward Owen and Mary Williams that is causing me to be cautious, unless Dorothea Lutz had sight of the Llanrhos Registers then is she "guessing" at this earlier information

Her email address does not appear to work and after some googling she may have died.

Regards
Wend

[Glynm]

Hi Wend

From the 1851 Census it is clear there were two people named Edward Owen who were born in Llandudno in the early 1790's. Your Edward living at Nant y Gamar born around 1795 and a second  born 1792 who was a servant at a house called Bodhyfryd. I had seen the Llanrhos 1792 baptism and discounted it since I assumed it was the second Edward's birth. There does not seem to be a baptism record in Llanrhos to match your Edward's birth and can only assume it was in one of the adjacent parishes whose transcriptions are not on the internet.

Glyn