George Alfred Holding 9th Battalion York & Lancaster, and Machine Gun Corps

[Phil Antony]

I am researching my Great Grandfather George Alfred Holding, born in Lambeth in 1878, and have a some general questions I hope the forum can help me with.
There are no surviving service records for him, or census records pre-1911 and his medal card shows him in the Yorks & Lancaster Regiment, and then the Labour Corps.
The 1914-15 Star records show him as a Private No. 4611 in the 9th York & Lancaster Regiment. The Army service numbers blogsite states that this would mean he joined up on 17th March 1896. There is no prefix to his number on his medal card, so I presume I have this correct?

I have some other info from a couple of birth certificates for 2 of his children. One for his son William born Sept 1915 states that he is a Lance Corporal in the York & Lancaster Regiment, and then in Nov 1917 after the birth of his son Eric, he is a Lance Corporal in the Machine Gun Corps (c).
 
I was surprised to see that even though George Holding was born in Lambeth according to the census record I have, that he enlisted in a Yorkshire regiment. Why this might have been? Did they recruit in London in the 1890's?

Has anyone come across  Machine Gun Corps (c) battalion, where they may have been formed etc?

Thanks very much for any help or advice you can give me.

[Jebber]

Place of birth has no bearing  on Regiment enlisted into, especially  in war time, men were sent where they were needed, as units lost men in battle, replacement were drafted in from all over the country.

[Phil Antony]

The silver war badge records have told me that he enlists on 19 Oct 1914, which is before conscription in WW1 and I can't find any evidence that it was used to recruit troops for the Boer War or any of the late 19th Century campaigns.

[MaxD]

Service number first.  4611 was allocated to the York and Lancs in 1898 to a soldier of the 1st or 2nd Battalion. The first battalion were in South Africa but there is no Boer War record/medal for him that I can find.  However, service numbers before 1920 were not unique and a number of men in the same regiment, but different battalions, would have the same number, example here just from York and Lancaster men shows two more 4611s although one is distinguished with a 4/ prefix): http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=4611&_ep=medal&_or1=york&_or2=lancaster&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv  As you have no family evidence it seems for earlier service, I'd suggest he was a fine early volunteer in October 1914 as his SWB record says and that, as Jebber says, the recruiter knew which battalions were forming and needed men so he went off to Frensham or Aldershot (which is where the battalion was in Sep/Nov 14) for training. Then to France and later Italy assuming he stayed with the battalion most of the time.

The date of entry to France on his medal card is totally consistent with the arrival date of the 9th Battalion.

His medal records don't record him as being in the MGC as per the birth certificate, only that, presumably later in his service, perhaps as a result of his wounding, he was transferred to the Labour Corps.  He appears on the Labour Corps roll for the British War and Victory medals, which also does not mention the MGC.  Best not to speculate really except that he may have been in the light machine gun section of his Y and L battalion and the registrar made a mistake?

Although it may not be relevant the MGC is described well here http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/

There are two war diaries for 9th Battalion Y and L, downloadable for £3.50 each http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=8+york&_ep=lancaster&_or1=diaries&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv&_p=1900&Refine+dates=Refine  (first two)  They are unlikely to mention him by name but will tell you where the battalion was and what it was doing.

maxD

[newburychap]

To add to MaxD's excellent advice.

It is possible that he was transferred to the Machine Gun Corps while he was in the UK and then to the Labour Corps before returning to France.  If his service with the MGC was wholly in the UK it would not be recorded on his medal roll entries.

[MaxD]

Useful addition!!

Whoops, not so excellent.  The second war diary, that for the Italy period, has not been digitised so has to be copied.

You asked about the Machine Gun Corps (c) designation on the birth certificate.  There was a "C" Machine Gun Battalion but this was only formed in Egypt in 1918 so it doesn't fit.  The only other use for the (c) would be to denote Cavalry but the MGC Cavalry were formed from cavalry units so I think it a bit of stretch. 

maxD

[Phil Antony]

Thanks everyone for all the fantastic information.

I have had a look at the Machine Gun Corps Regiments too, and found some information about Machine Gun Corps training battalions. They were organised into three Training Groups - A, B and C. A was at Harrowby; B at Belton and C at Cannock Chase in Staffs. Soldiers would be assigned to a [lettered] Training Battalion, and then on conclusion be assigned to a [numbered] Reserve Battalion prior to drafting to front line units. I am thinking it may also be a possibility that this is where George Holding goes before joining the Labour Corps.

Thanks for the link to the War diaries.

[MaxD]

And thank you Phil for the detail about the training groups, something I had not come across before.  I have added it to my meagre knowledge store.

I'd agree that it does all seem to add up to the scenario first postulated by newburychap.  Why he didn't complete training and go to France with the MGC we shall, in the absence of his service record, never know for sure.  The BW and V medal roll shows a number of men from the Yorks and Lancs (and one or two MGC) all in the same batch of Labour Corps numbers as his which suggests a compulsory transfer netting him from his MGC training before he finished - speculation though.

The Nov 17 birth date at least says that you probably only need the first, downloadable, war diary and not the Italy one.

maxD

PS - going to dig around a bit more!

[MaxD]

I note that your query has been comprehensively dealt with elsewhere.  I am happy to leave you in the hands of the experts there.

maxD