The Marriage of James Lees and Ann ??, and their roots?

[trish1120]

1851 Census
Sarah Rhodes, 47, Widow, Laundress, born West Bromwich, Staffordshire
Harriet Rhodes, 14
Edward Rhodes, 12

MARRIAGE;
13 September 1824, Saint Matthew, Walsall, Stafford, England
Edward ROADS to Sarah WALKER
(Familysearch.Org)

[Ruskie]

It seems like there may be a bit of confusion, and you should stick to solid proof/documentation.

If your James went to America in 1858, he is unlikely to be having children in scotland in 1859/1860.

What are the sources of your information?

You have two very similar threads which may cause confusion. I will ask a moderator to merge the two. 


Threads merged.

[Ruskie]

So can we forget the Scotland link that you put in your previous post?

This thread appeared before the other one. 

I have requested that the two threads be merged, as it is already causing a bit of confusion having two such similar threads. (I'm confused anyway    )

I may be wrong, but I am guessing that the OP may have found reference to James Lees being in Scotland, perhaps on someone else's tree? It seems there is a mix up, which the purchase of some certificates should help iron out. 

It is possible that the immigration year is incorrect. It  is worth looking into the James Lees in Scotland to see what his occupation is, and who his father is.

(Thank you for merging the topics mod) 

[Lees Lady]

Let me see if I can clear up some of the confusion...

Cross=posting:  The reason I cross-posted is because the James Lees in Staffordshire is not the only James Lees I am looking into.  I've seen other men named James Lees from Lancashire, Derbyshire, Manchester and London that could be our ancestor. I did post here first because I wanted to rule in or out this specific James Lees, but with this topic merged only into Staffordshire, I can't really get broader help with the rest.  I did think this James Lees might be my best lead, but I'm not positive the other candidates aren't him.

Scotland birth of William J Lees:  On the United States 1860 census record in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, James Lees is listed with a baby named William J Lees.  The census record indicates he was born in Scotland.  This same William Lees is on an 1870s census record, but on that one he is listed as having been born in Pennsylvania.  On 1860s census record, it is unclear who the mother is, as William J is listed second, and then there is a woman named Elizabeth who is listed third, and under her is another baby named Charles Williams (not William) so it seems unlikely that she could be the mother of both.   I could not find a birth certificate or death certificate for him, but I did find the death certificates for his two younger brothers.  While unfortunately, they don't give the Mother's name, they indicate that her birthplace was Scotland.

The mystery is how is it possible he was born in Scotland if James Lees immigrated in 1858?  Maybe his mother still lived in Scotland and James Lees went back for a visit after immigrating and that's when his wife got pregnant? Maybe he wasn't really born in Scotland, but it seems like a odd mistake to make on a census record in Pennsylvania?

Second Wife/Birth Mother, Elizabeth Lees or Jane Lees or Elizabeth Jane Lees:  If the Staffordshire James Lees is the right guy, then Ann must have died, or he divorced and he married again.  It is possible that the Elizabeth in the 1860 census record, and the Jane listed in the 1870s census record are the same person. And they just have some variation of the name (i.e. Elizabeth Jane, Jane Elizabeth, etc.)  I don't know whether they married while still in the UK or once they came to the United States.  I can't find a marriage record.  I am DYING to find out who this woman is!  For her, it may extend into looking into Scotland records, but no idea how to track her down at all!!

Would LOVE help from people who are more experienced at this than I am!

Records/Clues:

I have the following documents that I want to attach, but it doesn't seem to be letting me.  I've been clicking "Attachments and other options" but then it just stays on this post?  I will try figure it out but may not be attachment to this post.

1841 Staffordshire Census
1851 Staffordshire Census
1860 US Census Records
1870 Us Census Records

1858 Passenger List (James Lees, travelling with a Samuel Lees, who I assumed is his brother but no proof of that.  The ages don't line up perfectly with the 1841 census records, but I thought they were close enough that they could be the same two people.)

Death Certificates of 2 of James Lees sons, (both state that their mother was born in Scotland.  Unfortunately, the don't provide the mother's maiden or first name.) 




 

[Ruskie]

Thank you for the explanations, and being so clear in your replies Lees Lady. 

I take it that you are looking at all the James Lees as you are unsure of the origins of your James? Is the James Lees in Philadelpia definitely your James? I think you might be missing a step in going directly to England/Scotland and you might need another clue from the US side before you can look to English/Scottish records to find your James. Others may have different opinions or ideas to chase up.

You are not allowed to post entire census records on rootschat for copyright reasons, but you can post sections of the appropriate records. Anyone who is interested is probably able to look them up, or maybe someone (cleverer than me  ) would be willing to post them for you.

I think that keeping the search for the right James in one place makes it easier to follow, and most of us can help with research in England as well as Scotland. We can always request that the thread be moved again if needed.

Added: May I request that you compile a brief time line of your Lees family? You can mention what facts and documents you have (eg certificates) and where any gaps are. Setting it out like this might help make it clearer.

[Ruskie]

The James Lees you have found in the 1860 US census is dittoed from the household above, and is indexed as James Lees Foley.

William J is dittoed too, so his name looks to be William J Foley.

The woman, Elizabeth (surname also dittoed, so is Foley), is said to be born in "Penna" which I am assuming in Pennsylvania?

Charles Williams who looks to be four months old and also born in Penna, is not dittoed. His surname looks to be Williams.

There are other James Lees on the 1860 census. How did you decide that this one might be your James?

You say you have William J in the US 1870 census - do you also have James Lees in 1870? I am having trouble finding William J with "Jane" in 1870 - who else is living with them? Where are they living?

[solidrock]

These maybe the James and Samuel on the passenger list.

In the 1851 census, Castle Gable, 27, St Pauls, Perthshire, Scotland

James Lees, b 1826, Shopman.
Samuel Lees. b 1841,    Sholar.

Father John Lees, b 1799    Comb Maker & Hardware 1 Man.
Mother Jane Lees, b 1797.

Six other siblings,
Henry R, b 1824.
William, b 1830.
Rachel, b 1835.
Elisebeth, b 1835.
Jane M, b 1837.
Ann, b 1839.

[Lees Lady]

Here is the lineage of the Philadelphia James Lees to my husband.

James Lees, (1825 England - 1904 Pennsylvania)
   Married to Ann ??
   Married to Jane/Elizabeth
   Married in 1873 to Susannah Gessler (1837 - 1898)
   
   father of
 
James Henry Lees 1865 - 1904 (both Pennsylvania)
  Mother, Jane?? 
  Married in  1886 to Mary Rothery  (1866, Yorkshire England - 1931 Philadelphia)

  father of

James J Lees  (1892 - 1865)

  father of

James Lees (1918 - 2008)

  father of

John Lees (1940 - present)

  father of

John Lees (1969 - present), my husband

Immigration records of James Lees
  His death certificate states he came to the US in 1858.  So I found this matching immigration record.

James Lee
  (Lee is a transcription error. On the actual record it says Lees)
   Age 32
   Country of Origin:  England
   Arrival:  Jan 15 1858
   Port of Arrival:  New York, New York
   Port of Departure:  Liverpool, England
   Ship:  Aurora
   Occupation:  Shoemaker

Under him is listed
Samuel  Lees
  Age 30
  All the same information is James except career is barber

May be just a coincidence, but above James is another person listed as a shoemaker.
John Crowley, Age 19, England

1870 US Census Record Philadelphia Ward 18 Dist 53 (2nd Enum)
Hard to read the street, but I think it says Sarah or Sarrah St.

Lees   James       43   1825   Male      
Lees   Jane           39   1831   Female      
Lees   William   11   1859   Male      
Lees   George   9   1861   Male      
Lees   James   7   1863   Male      
Lees   Samuel   1   1869   Male

I did notice that the 1860 census is indexed wrong.  It should not say Foley after their last name.  It does seem as though they may have lived with the Foleys, but I don't see the address on the census record.

1860s US Census Record Pennsylvania, Philadelphia Ward 1 Precinct 8
   Lees           James   35   1825   Male      England
        Lees     William   9/12   1859   Male      Scotland
   Lees     Elizabeth   31   1829   Female   Pennsylvania
   Williams   Charles   4/12   1860   Male      Pennsylvania

1880 US Census  Pennsylvania, Philadelphia Enumeration District 685
   
Lees   James   Male      55     1825   Self     Married   England           England   England
Lees   Sussie   Female 42     1838   Wife     Married   Pennsylvania   Maryland   New Jersey
Lees   William J.   Male      20   1860   Son     Single   Pennsylvania   England   Maryland
Lees   George W.   Male      18     1862   Son     Single   Pennsylvania   England   Maryland
Lees   James H.   Male      16   1864   Son     Single   Pennsylvania   England   Maryland
Lees   Laura L.   Female   5   1875          Daugh  Single   Pennsylvania   England   Maryland
Lees   Mary R.   Female   3   1877          Daugh  Single   Pennsylvania   England   Maryland


Here are the mysteries I'm trying to solve:

Trace definitely the James Lees of 1825 back to England.

Who is Elizabeth?

Who is Jane?  When did she and James marry?  While it would be great to determine if she is the mother of William J, my main focus is on James Henry, because he is husband's direct ancestor.  On the death certificates of George W and James Henry they list their mother's country of origin as Scotland.

Ancillary details:

I could not find birth or baptism records for William J., George W. or James Henry, but I did find them for their two younger brothers who were also born to a James and Jane Lees.

Samuel Lees
Parents:  James and Jane Lees
Birth  19 Mar 1870 • Philadelphia
Baptism
5 Jun 1870 • Philadelphia , Penns
Old St. George Methodist Episcopal Church
Death
9 Aug 1871 • Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Burial
10 Aug 1871 • Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Mount Moriah

Name   Thomas Lees
Birth Date   abt 1866
Birth Place   Philadelphia PA
Death Date   25 Nov 1868
Death Place   Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Age at Death   2
Burial Date   29 Nov 1868
Burial Place   Philadelphia PA
Gender   Male
Race   White
Cemetery   Mount Moriah
Father   James Lees
Mother   Jane Lees
Church of Record:  Roman Catholic, Church of the Evangelist  This might be a good clue because it indicates that they were Catholic.

Common Misspellings:  I have seen Lees misspelled as Lee, Lers, Lus, Leese, so that definitely makes things tricky when trying to find accurate records.  I think that is why you couldn't find the 1870 census,  I believe the transcription has it misspelled as one of those variations, at least on Ancestry.com.

Thanks for the help!!

[Ruskie]

That makes it all much clearer - thanks Lees Lady.

Something that struck me when reading (skimming) through, which I'm sure you've already considered, and that is, children living in a family are sometimes not the children of the adults, the adults may not be married, and the women may not be the mothers to the children with them on the census. 

Having Methodists and Catholics may, or may not, make record finding more difficult.

I know it is all you have to go on at the moment, but it is quite common for information supplied at death, by a third party, to be wrong.

I will have a closer look later when I have more time.