Author Topic: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?  (Read 910 times)

Offline Liviani

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Re: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 10 June 17 23:49 BST (UK) »
For anyone interested in this Cloudsley name, I've found the following person in the 1841 census.

FreeCen.

Civil Parish: Montrose Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 29 Page: 6
Address: Newark Cot Hillsde Hedderwick

        Surname       First name(s)       Sex       Age       Occupation       Where Born       Remarks   
        COLLUM       Margaret       F       60       Independent        Angus           
        CLOUDSLY       Catharine       F       30       Independent        England           
        RENNY       Margaret       F       6       Pauper        Angus   


A Cloudsly born in England living in Montrose. There does seem to be close connection to England and the Cloudslys of Montrose.         
    

Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie, Moffat
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Beattie, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott, Tindal
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie

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Online Rosinish

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Re: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 11 June 17 04:41 BST (UK) »
Have you looked for other possible family members in the same area as Catharine in 1841?

Have you found her in Scotland whether married or single in 1851 as it may give a specific place of birth in England?

It could be that the child on 1841 Margaret Renny/Rennie aged 6 born Angus is her daughter?
Have you looked for her baptism although she may not have been baptised/record lost or later in 1851?

As you say, name not too common but she could be under any name in 1851 such as Renny if she was illegitimate given her father's surname although he may not have registered her/her mother's maiden name/step-father's surname if Catherine has married by 1851?

Lots of possibilities/ideas.

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie, MacDonald, MacInnes, MacIntyre, MacKinnon, Steele, Walker

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, MacKinnon, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

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Offline Liviani

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Re: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?
« Reply #11 on: Monday 12 June 17 21:15 BST (UK) »
Have you looked for other possible family members in the same area as Catharine in 1841?

Have you found her in Scotland whether married or single in 1851 as it may give a specific place of birth in England?

It could be that the child on 1841 Margaret Renny/Rennie aged 6 born Angus is her daughter?
Have you looked for her baptism although she may not have been baptised/record lost or later in 1851?

As you say, name not too common but she could be under any name in 1851 such as Renny if she was illegitimate given her father's surname although he may not have registered her/her mother's maiden name/step-father's surname if Catherine has married by 1851?

Lots of possibilities/ideas.

Annie

Here she is in 1851;

Piece: SCT1851/312 Place: Montrose -Angus Enumeration District: 3B
Civil Parish: Montrose B Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 256 Page: 3 Schedule: 9
Address: Hillside Of Hedderwick

        Surname       First name(s)       Rel       Status       Sex       Age       Occupation       Where Born       Remarks   
        CLOUDSLEY       Catherine Georgina       Head       U       F       39       Keeps Lodgers        England - -       

No specification on place of birth, but we do have a middle name now. I have found the following birth record in Norwich, I believe this is her, though the years are out by approx 4.

Name:   Catharina Georgina Cloudsley
Birth Date:   21 Apr 1808
Baptism Date:   19 May 1808
Baptism Place:   Norwich, St James with Pockthorpe, Norfolk, England
Parish:   Norwich, St James with Pockthorpe
Event Type:   Baptism
Father:   George Cloudsley
Mother:   Martha Clarke Clarke seems to be an error, I've checked other sources and seen the original, it's most likely Laws or varients.

In regards to the Margaret Renny, I looked on SP for baptisms and could only find this one that matches Margaret in 1841;

RENNY
MARGARET
JAMES RENNY/CLEMENTINA BEATTIE
0
23/03/1835
312/
100 308
Montrose

I wonder if she is related to the Margaret Collum who is listed with Catherine in 1841 rather than being a daughter of Catherine? Given Catherine's occupation in 1851 as "Keeps lodgers" I feel this is more likely.

Catherine is still unmarried in 1851, after this she disappears. Had no luck on SP with marriages or deaths.

Jill
Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie, Moffat
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Beattie, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott, Tindal
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie

Online Rosinish

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Re: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 20 June 17 04:34 BST (UK) »
In regards to the Margaret Renny, I looked on SP for baptisms and could only find this one that matches Margaret in 1841;

RENNY
MARGARET
JAMES RENNY/CLEMENTINA BEATTIE
0
23/03/1835
312/
100 308
Montrose

I wonder if she is related to the Margaret Collum who is listed with Catherine in 1841 rather than being a daughter of Catherine? Given Catherine's occupation in 1851 as "Keeps lodgers" I feel this is more likely.

Catherine is still unmarried in 1851, after this she disappears. Had no luck on SP with marriages or deaths.

Jill

For reference..

"Civil Parish: Montrose Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 29 Page: 6
Address: Newark Cot Hillsde Hedderwick

        Surname       First name(s)       Sex       Age       Occupation       Where Born       Remarks   
        COLLUM       Margaret       F       60       Independent        Angus           
        CLOUDSLY       Catharine       F       30       Independent        England           
        RENNY       Margaret       F       6       Pauper        Angus   


A Cloudsly born in England living in Montrose. There does seem to be close connection to England and the Cloudslys of Montrose
"     

I would personally hazard a guess that Margaret Renny is more likely to be related to Catherine Cloudsly?

My reasoning is....

Where different names are listed, usually the immediate family would be listed 1st then others beneath (from my experience) but I'm unsure if that was the case with all?

They both may well be related to Margaret Collum but sadly it was 1841 which would be guessing.

Have you found a marriage for Margaret Renny?

Edit...Read your post re 1851 for Catherine so the Margaret Renny scenario is now in doubt especially being so young & on the bottom of the list  ???  ::)

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie, MacDonald, MacInnes, MacIntyre, MacKinnon, Steele, Walker

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, MacKinnon, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Online Rosinish

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Re: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 20 June 17 04:44 BST (UK) »
Have you found Catherine Cloudsley, Margaret Collum & Margaret Renny in 1861?

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie, MacDonald, MacInnes, MacIntyre, MacKinnon, Steele, Walker

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, MacKinnon, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 20 June 17 09:16 BST (UK) »
Given that Margaret Collum and Catharine Cloudsly are both described as 'Independent' and Margaret Rennie as 'Pauper', have you considered the possibility that Margaret is an orphaned child boarded out by the parish with Margaret and Catherine, both of whom have an independent income of their own?

Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Liviani

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Re: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 20 June 17 12:41 BST (UK) »
Have you found Catherine Cloudsley, Margaret Collum & Margaret Renny in 1861?

Annie

I haven't found Catherine Cloudsley after 1851 with wide search parameters and no Margaret Collum after 1841. She is 60-64 in 1841 though so, she is older.

I have had no luck in searching for a death in either the OPRs or Civil Reg for a death for Catherine again with very wide search parameters. She potentially goes back to England of course.

I've found 3 Margaret Rennies that were born in Angus around 1835 (+/- 5) in 1851;

  • One aged 14 at Cotton of Greystone, Monikie. She is a granddaughter to a family with the name 'Couper' and she is a Farm Servant. Lists her being born in Angus-Arbroath. I do not think this is her.
  • One aged 18 at Craigo Mill Bothy, Logie Pert, with 14 other people. All of these people are listed as Flax Factory Workers. It appears none are obvious relations to Margaret.  This Margaret was born Angus-Montrose. Unsure on this one, she could've lied about her age in 1851 of course.

And finally this one (FreeCen);

Piece: SCT1851/319 Place: St Vigeans -Angus Enumeration District: 4b
Civil Parish: St Vigeans Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: St Vigeans B
Folio: 244 Page: 22 Schedule: 40
Address: Tarry Bank Seaton

        Surname       First name(s)       Rel       Status       Sex       Age       Occupation       Where Born       Remarks   
        SMART       William       Head       M       M       34       Master Wright Emp 2 Boys        Angus - St Vigeans        Wright's house   
        SMART       Susan       Wife       M       F       30               Angus - Farnell           
        SMART       William       Son       -       M       4               Angus - St Vigeans           
        SMART       Isobel       Dau       -       F       2               Angus - St Vigeans           
        RUSSELL       Joseph       Servnt       U       M       17       Wright Apprentice        Angus - Inverkeillor           
        RENNY       Margret       Servnt       U       F       15       House Servant        Angus - Brechin           
        RAMSAY       Alexander       Servnt       -       M       9       Outdoor Servant        Angus - St Vigeans           
    
        
The age most closely matches the Margaret Renny in 1841, but I can't help but feel that the Margaret in Logie Pert is the same one in 1841.

Given that Margaret Collum and Catharine Cloudsly are both described as 'Independent' and Margaret Rennie as 'Pauper', have you considered the possibility that Margaret is an orphaned child boarded out by the parish with Margaret and Catherine, both of whom have an independent income of their own?

Yes, I do feel that this is more likely and that Margaret Renny is unrelated to Margaret Collum and Catherine.

Many thanks,

Jill.




Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie, Moffat
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Beattie, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott, Tindal
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 20 June 17 18:18 BST (UK) »
I think I would agree that the one in Logie Pert is the most likely. It may not be her who said she was 18 - could be her employer getting it wrong.

As she was listed as a pauper before the establishment of the parochial board system in 1845, it is possible that there mighht be some mention of her in the Montrose Kirk Session records, because it was the Kirk Session who looked after paupers at that time.

Also, as she was only about 12 in 1845, there is a small chance that she was dealt with by the parochial board too, but I can't remember if the Montrose parochial board records have survived. If they have, Angus Archives should either have them or know where they are.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

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Re: Is Mary Cloudsley's father Andrew or Hugh?
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 19 September 17 04:24 BST (UK) »
Hi Liviani,

I have just been looking at the marriages on one of my own OPRs & I may have a relative of yours on the list  :-\

Cludsley & Welsh... 27 May 1809, Alexander Cludsley & Jean Welsh (Garvock, Kincardine)...Both ITP (In this Parish)

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie, MacDonald, MacInnes, MacIntyre, MacKinnon, Steele, Walker

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, MacKinnon, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"