Author Topic: Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s  (Read 314 times)

Online horselydown86

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Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s
« on: Friday 16 June 17 07:20 BST (UK) »
I would like to ask for some help please with a transcription and translation of the significant parts of this grant from the mid 1390s.

I can make out a few of the more common words - presentet, carta nostra, uxori, heredibus, quondam etc - but not enough to be worth posting an attempt at transcription.

Image one is the first line from beginning to a list of names (which don't require transcription).

The names seem mostly in the nominative:  Ricardus and Gill(ielm)us are clear.  (I'm less sure about the two Thomas's.  The first can be seen in the clip and the second appears to be written Thomas.)

The second line is taken by the rest of the names.

Image 2 is the third line from beginning to a name Joh(an)?.  I have his surname. Then: de

Image 3 begins with that John's place - Maydeford - and runs in two segments down to testibusTestibus is followed by a list of the witnesses which (mainly) don't require transcription.

I will need a little help polishing off the date etc at the end, but that is for another time.

Thank you for your help.  I'm in no hurry so please take as much time as is comfortable.

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Online horselydown86

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Re: Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s
« Reply #1 on: Friday 16 June 17 07:21 BST (UK) »
Here is the second segment of Image 3:

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Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s
« Reply #2 on: Friday 16 June 17 15:16 BST (UK) »
Extract 1
Sciant presentes et futuri q(uo)d Nos Thom(a)s
Let all men present and to come know that we, Thomas ...

Extract 2
dedim(us) concessim(us) et hac p(re)senti carta nostra confirmavim(us) Joh(ann)i
... have given, granted and by this our present charter have confirmed to John ...

Extract 3.1
Maydeford et Joh(ann)e ux(or)i sue h(er)edib(us) et assignatis eo(rum) om(n)ia illa terras et teneme(n)ta

in Maydeford que et quas(*) nup(er) h(ab)uim(us) ex dono et feofamento p(re)fate Joh(ann)e filie et

heredis quondam Edmu(n)di pulerton de Maydeford h(abe)nd(um) et tenend(um) om(n)ia p(re)d(i)c(t)a

terras et tenementa cu(m) pratis Pascujs pasturis et cu(m) om(n)ib(us) suis p(er)tine(n)tijs


... (of) Maydeford and Joan his wife, their heirs and assigns, all those lands and tenements in Maydeford which lately we held from a gift and feoffment of the aforesaid Joan, the daughter and former heir of Edmund Pulerton of Maydeford, to have and to hold all the aforesaid lands and tenements with meadows, grazing, pastures and all their appurtenances


Extract 3.2
de nobis et heredib(us) nostris p(re)d(i)c(t)is Joh(ann)i Joh(an)ne heredib(us) aut eo(rum) assignatis lib(er)e

quiete integre b(e)n(e) et in pace de capit(a)lib(us) d(omi)ni et feodi illi(us) p(er) servicia inde

debita et de Jure consueta hereditare Inp(er)p(etuu)m In cui(us) rei testi(m)oni(o) huic p(re)senti

carte sigilla nostra apposuim(us) hijs testib(us) Joh(ann)e Essex ...


from us and our heirs to the aforesaid John, Joan, their heirs or assigns, freely, quietly, entirely, well and in peace, of the chief lords of that fee by the services thence owed and by right accustomed, to inherit for ever; in witness of which matter we have fixed our seals to this present charter, these being witnesses – John Essex ...

      * [the Latin has que (neuter, for the tenements) et quas (feminine, for the lands), in my translation conflated into one which]

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Re: Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s
« Reply #3 on: Friday 16 June 17 15:36 BST (UK) »
Thank you very much, Bookbox, for your invaluable help with this text.  I am going through it word by word now.  Some of the words -  h(ab)uim(us) is one - I could not have got if I looked at it for a year.

Your help is, as always, greatly appreciated at my end.

Thank you again.

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Re: Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s
« Reply #4 on: Friday 16 June 17 15:51 BST (UK) »
You're welcome.

I'm afraid there's a correction already ... de capit(a)lib(us) d(omi)ni should be de capit(a)lib(us) d(omi)nis (plural), sorry.

Please raise for discussion anything you're uncertain about.


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Re: Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s
« Reply #5 on: Friday 16 June 17 15:54 BST (UK) »
Thank you for the update.

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Re: Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s
« Reply #6 on: Monday 19 June 17 15:43 BST (UK) »
I would like a little help please to tidy up the last lines of this Grant.

I have:

...Ricardo Pille et [blijs? Oata?] ap(u)d maydeford

die [d(omi)ni?a] p(ro)x(im)a ante festu(m) nati(vi)tatis be(atae) marie [?] Regis Ricardi [se(cun)di?]

post conquestu(m) vicesimo

- I'm unsure of the name of the last witness.

- I think the day boils down to the Lords's day, but is that right and how is the second word actually written?

- What is/are the word or words between marie and Regis?

- The word after Ricardi must be secundi, but is it written as above?

- Finally, Google tells me that Regis Ricardi post conquestum was a fairly common phrase, but what does post conquestum mean here?

The dictionaries suggest the root conquest- means complaint or lament?

Thank you for your help.

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Re: Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s
« Reply #7 on: Monday 19 June 17 18:32 BST (UK) »
- I'm unsure of the name of the last witness.
The last witness is Ricardo Pille, as you have it.
Then comes et Alijs = and others.
Then Ca(p)ta ap(u)d Maydeford ... = Taken at Maydeford ...

- I think the day boils down to the Lords's day, but is that right and how is the second word actually written?
Yes, it's just the day of the week, die d(omi)nica = on Sunday


- What is/are the word or words between marie and Regis?
Anno regni = in the year of the reign ...
It’s a very odd capital A, but I think it has to be that standard phrase.


- The word after Ricardi must be secundi, but is it written as above?
It’s written scdi = s(e)c(un)di


- Finally, Google tells me that Regis Ricardi post conquestum was a fairly common phrase, but what does post conquestum mean here?
It simply means ‘after the Conquest’, that is, the Norman Conquest, distinguishing this King Richard from any Saxon or other king of the same name who might have ruled before 1066.

So, as regards the exact date ...
Anno regni ... vicesimo = in the 20th year of the reign
20 Richard II = 22 June 1396 to 21 June 1397.
Nativity of the BVM is 8 September, which in 1396 was a Friday (according to Cheney’s Table 8/12 *).
If all the above reckoning is correct, the Sunday immediately preceding that feast would be 3 September 1396.
     
     * C. R. Cheney, ed., A Handbook of Dates (Cambridge, 1945, rev. 2000, p. 178)


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Re: Help Please with Latin Grant From 1390s
« Reply #8 on: Monday 19 June 17 18:50 BST (UK) »
That is brilliant, thank you very much - it's all crystal clear to me now.

Thank you once more for your help with this document.