William Robert Cain and Isabella Cain (born Dickie) - brothers and sisters?

[elks]

My grandfather William Robert Cain was born 29 June 1881 in Clara, Tullamore, Ireland. On 3 June 1908 he married Isabella Dickie Cain (most likely in Greenock), and he died in Falkirk, Scotland, in 1940. Isabella died in Falkirk in 1932. They had three children, of whom one was my mother, so I know all I need about them. I am, however, seeking for brothers and sisters.
William Robert Cain had a brother, James Alexander Cain, born 1883, married to Edith Mary Miller, of whom I have learned a lot through RootsChat (John Johnson: Descendants of James Alexander Cain and Edith Mary Miller), and I also knew about them through my mother. But as my grandparents both died long before I was born, I never had the chance to ask them about the rest of the family. There are references in RootsChat to three sisters: Margaret, born 26 January 1873 in Ireland, Mary Ann, born 1876 in Ireland and Rebecca, born 1886 in Greenock, Scotland. Margaret married Peter Watson in 1915 and lived in Greenock. According to Scottish Census 1911 they all lived with their mother Mary in 36 Lyle Street in Greenock, Scotland, apart from William Robert, who was married by the time. I have not been able to trace these three sisters and wonder what happened to them. My cousins and I have only heard of «auntie Maggie», but none of the others. Did they die young or did they emigrate?
My grandmother, Isabella Dickie Cain, was born 1 June 1882 in Greenock, Scotland, and she died in Falkirk in 1932. Her parents were Christina Sirket Dickie and John Dickie, married in Greenock 10 December 1869. Through MyHeritage I have found two men I believe are her brothers: James Dickie, born in Greenock 27 August 1870, and Thomas Sirket Dickie, born in Greenock 2 August 1873. I have found that Thomas Sirket Dickie died in New Zealand in 1937, in Bromley Canterbury, but have not been able to find whether James also moved to New Zealand. I have heard that some members of our family emigrated. Grandmother Isabella was not born until 1882. Was she an «afterthought» or could there be more brothers or sisters?
Grateful for any suggestions about where to search!

[ev]

Hi ,

Have you tried the Scotlandspeople website ?
It looks like the Thomas Sirket Dickie born 1873 died 1877 in Greenock age 4.

Family on the 1881 Census ?
46 Cathcart St , Greenock , Renfrew
John Dickie 38 railway labourer born West Kilbride Ayr
Chrisa. Dickie 30 wife dressmaker b. Dundee Forfar
Jas. Dickie 10 son b.Greenock Renfrew
Chrisa. Dickie  1 daur. b. Greenock Renfrew

1881 death , Christina Sirke(t?) Dickie age 2 , Greenock Renfrew.

There is a 1902 death for a Christina Dickie(other surname Sirket) age 49 ,  Greenock East Renfrew.



ev

[ev]

Death 1902 Christina Sirket Dickie , wife of John Dickie , died at 26 Lynedoch Street Greenock on 21st April 1902(Greenock Telegraph).

Death 1902 John Dickie , carriage hirer , died at 26 Lynedoch Street  on 31st October 1902(Greenock Telegraph).



ev

Added -
Death 1888 James Dickie , only son of John Dickie coachman , died at 41 Cathcart Street Greenock , on 8th April 1888 age 17 years 7 months(Greenock Telegraph).

[Forfarian]

My grandfather William Robert Cain was born 29 June 1881 in Clara, Tullamore, Ireland. On 3 June 1908 he married Isabella Dickie Cain (most likely in Greenock), and he died in Falkirk, Scotland, in 1940. Isabella died in Falkirk in 1932. They had three children, of whom one was my mother, so I know all I need about them. I am, however, seeking for brothers and sisters.
William Robert Cain had a brother, James Alexander Cain, born 1883, married to Edith Mary Miller, of whom I have learned a lot through RootsChat (John Johnson: Descendants of James Alexander Cain and Edith Mary Miller), and I also knew about them through my mother. But as my grandparents both died long before I was born, I never had the chance to ask them about the rest of the family. There are references in RootsChat to three sisters: Margaret, born 26 January 1873 in Ireland, Mary Ann, born 1876 in Ireland and Rebecca, born 1886 in Greenock, Scotland. Margaret married Peter Watson in 1915 and lived in Greenock. According to Scottish Census 1911 they all lived with their mother Mary in 36 Lyle Street in Greenock, Scotland, apart from William Robert, who was married by the time. I have not been able to trace these three sisters and wonder what happened to them. My cousins and I have only heard of «auntie Maggie», but none of the others. Did they die young or did they emigrate?
My grandmother, Isabella Dickie Cain, was born 1 June 1882 in Greenock, Scotland, and she died in Falkirk in 1932. Her parents were Christina Sirket Dickie and John Dickie, married in Greenock 10 December 1869. Through MyHeritage I have found two men I believe are her brothers: James Dickie, born in Greenock 27 August 1870, and Thomas Sirket Dickie, born in Greenock 2 August 1873. I have found that Thomas Sirket Dickie died in New Zealand in 1937, in Bromley Canterbury, but have not been able to find whether James also moved to New Zealand. I have heard that some members of our family emigrated. Grandmother Isabella was not born until 1882. Was she an «afterthought» or could there be more brothers or sisters?
Grateful for any suggestions about where to search!

I wish everyone would include all the available information as you have done. It makes it so much easier when one doesn't find oneself duplicating research that has already been done.

The only place to search is www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. MyHeritage and other sites provide indexes or transcriptions (or varying quality), but only SP has the original documents to view.

However there is a useful index at www.familysearch.org which confirms that James Dickie, born 27 August 1870, and Thomas Sirket Dickie, born 2 August 1873, are the sons of John Dickie and Christina Sirket*, and therefore brothers of Isabella.

The 1891 census index has John Dickie, 46; Christina Dickie, 38; and Isabella Dickie, 8, in East Greenock. In 1901 there are John, 58; Christina, 59 and Isabella, 18. So it does look as if Thomas and Isabella were the only children to survive to adulthood.

*When naming married women, it's not a good idea to call them "aaa bbb ccc" where "aaa" is their given name, "bbb" their own surname and "ccc" their husband's surname. This creates potential confusion, as, for example confusing the mother Christina Sirket, married to John Dickie, with the child Christina Sirket Dickie, where Sirket is a given middle name. I always just use "aaa bbb" - In Scotland this is quite sufficient because a married woman in Scotland does not legally lose her maiden surname, and is referred to in legal documents as "aaa bbb" or "ccc".

Rebecca Cain or Swan, aged 33, died in Greenock in 1920. Mary Ann Cain, aged 42, died in Greenock in 1918. Margaret Cain or Watson, aged 59, died in Greenock in 1932. Their death certificates will tell you if they are the sisters of William Robert Cain (assuming that you already have his parents' names from his marriage and death certificates).

The best thing you can do is go to www.scotlandspeople, invest in some credits, and get all the relevant birth, marriage and death certificates.

[ev]

Death 1881 Christina Sirkett Dickie , only daughter of John Dickie coachman , died at 46 Cathcart Street Greenock on 27th June 1881 age 2 years 6 weeks(Greenock Telegraph).

Death 1877 Thomas Skiret Dickie , youngest son of John Dickie , died at 46 Cathcart Street Greenock on 30th October 1877 age 4 years 2 months(Greenock Telegraph).

Looks like Isabella Dickie born 1882 was the only child of John Dickie and Christina Sirket to survive into adulthood 



ev

[Forfarian]

Looks like Isabella Dickie born 1882 was the only child of John Dickie and Christina Sirket to survive into adulthood 

So who is Thomas Sirket Dickie who died in Bromley Canterbury NZ in 1937? The NZ death index just lists him as Thomas Dickie, aged 64. 

[MonicaL]

Hi Elks

From the other post here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=744066.m

1-William Robert Cain d. After 1885 Before 1911
 +Mary Trueman b. Abt 1845, Ireland, d. 1914, Greenock, Renfrewshire
|--2-Magaret Cain b. Abt 1873, Ireland
|   +Peter Watson m. 1915, Greenock, Renfrewshire
|--2-Mary Ann Cain b. Abt 1876, Ireland
|--2-James Alexander Cain b. Abt 1882, Ireland, d. 12 Jan 1933, 27 Columba
|    Street, Greenock, Renfrewshire
|   +Edith Mary Miller b. 27 Jan 1888, 22 Rodney St, Islington, c. 6 May 1888,
|    St Silas, Pentonville, Islington, m. 15 Jul 1914, St Paul's Church,
|    Dublin, d. 5 Mar 1983, Co. Down, Ireland, bur. Saintfield Parish
|    Churchyard, Co. Down, par. David Dughie Stevenson Miller and Mary Parker Cu
|    ndill
|  |--3-Marjory Mary Trueman Cain b. 20 May 1915, 26 Murtagh Road, North Dublin
|--2-Rebecca Cain b. Abt 1886, Renfrewshire

From this, you have the family in Greenock by 1891 as you know:

William Cain 46
Mary Cain 46
Margaret Cain 18
Mary Anne Cain 15
William R Cain 9
James A Cain 8
Rebecca Cain 5

Address: 38 Lynedoch St, Greenock

Some specific details on the children's births/christenings below. Some early death of children likely:

John Thomas 1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F53H-QHD
Margaret 1873 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRM4-FJV
Mary Ann 1875 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPB5-J6K                                                                                                   
William Thomas 1878 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FP8W-357                                     
William John 1880 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5B1-SSQ

Possible marriage for parents in 1870? Both of these entries have the same refs: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYS5-J46 and https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYSN-GZ5 The birth certs for one of the Scottish born children will include the date and place of parents' marriage to let you confirm date.   

Monica                                                                                                                                                               

[elks]

So many helpful, clever and kind people out there! Thanks a lot to all of you. Even if the stories of early deaths are sad, they helped me to find out exactly what I wanted. I shall try the Scotlandspeople website to go further.

To Monica: Your suggestion about possible marriage for William Cain and Mary Trueman in 1870 is right. A Pedigree Chart in our family shows that they married 26 May 1870 in Wicklow Parish Church, Ireland. He was born in Wicklow.

Very useful to know how to name married women. Thanks Forfarian.