James Norman, Chippendale, 1846

[RoserAncestors]

I am looking for the correct arrival record for a James Norman who had three children baptised at St Lawrence's church in Sydney in 1846.

I found two of the baptisms on the Joint Copying Project microfilm and the details are as follows:

Mary Norman born October 1846 baptised 31 March 1846 daughter of James & Bridget Norman, Chippendale, father a sawyer.

Frederick Norman born 1841 baptised 5 July 1846 son of James & Bridget Norman, Chippendale, father a sawyer.

James & Bridget do not seem to have been married - an 1846 article from Trove says that Bridget took action against James for failing to support one of their illegitimate children and already had another two with him: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12886253?searchTerm=%22james%20norman%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||dateTo=1846-12-31|||notWords|||anyWords|||dateFrom=1820-01-01|||requestHandler|||sortby=dateAsc

I was wondering if anyone can work out how James Norman arrived in Australia. Unfortunately I'm not sure when he died in order to order the right death certificate. Bridget arrived free (according to later gaol records) on the Duchess of Northumberland in 1836 and died in 1853 (I think).

[Dundee]

NSW BDM usually index baptisms by the year of birth of the child (if it is recorded) but you can tell which year they were baptised by the volume number.  In this case they were all baptised in 1846 (Vol 31)

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856

NORMAN, FREDERICK
506/1841
V1841506 31A
JAMES/BRIDGET

NORMAN. MARY
416/1845
V1845416 31A
JAMES/BRIDGET

NORMAN, JAMES
507/1846
V1846507 31A
JAMES/BRIDGET

Were James and Frederick baptised together as they have consecutive line numbers?

I think you might need to try and find more information about James the father before looking for an arrival, even just his age would help.

Debra 

[RoserAncestors]

Thank you Dundee, much appreciated. Yes I might need to order a death certificate or two I think. I didn't notice James' baptism next to Frederick's but I was in a rush this morning at the library so it's probably there. To check next time.

I have a feeling that the death registration of James Norman in 1867 aged 66 at Liverpool (on the NSW BDM index) might be him (just by eliminating others and assuming he didn't leave NSW). Might have to get that one.

[Jamjar]

Would a child's death cert provide information on James?

2796/1881 Frederick Norman CANTERBURY

Jamjar

[RoserAncestors]

Thanks Jamjar, I actually thought of that (James Norman junior died in Macksville district in 1903) but I suspect it would just say "James Norman sawyer" which I already know. You could be right though.

[Jamjar]

Possible death and funeral notices for Frederick:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70963658

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13501437

Jamjar

[cupoflife]

Have you considered this chap?
James NORMAN, one of 190 convicts transported on the Mangles, 29 March 1820. Convicted at Lincoln Assizes for a term of life on 24 July 1819
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Database-of-Transported-Convicts--1788-1868---Norman--James-of-Boston/900657.record?pt=S
https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/ConvictsDetails.aspx?convict_id=3776
Reference Name Convict 1259
Name:Norman, James of Boston
Age:20
Crime:Sheep stealing
Court:Assize
Trial Date:24/07/1819
Sentence:Death, commuted to life
Ship:Mangles
Destination:New South Wales
Transportation Date:1820
Repository: Lincolnshire Archives [057]

http://www.lincstothepast.com/List-of-the-petty-jury-and-witnesses-at-the-trials-of-Richard-Machin-and-James-Norman/821429.record?pt=S

http://www.jenwilletts.com/scourgers.htm
James Norman per Mangles appointed constable and scourger at Penrith - The Australian 5th April 1826
Abraham Taylor per ship Campbell Macquarie appointed scourger at Penrith in place of James Norman who was dismissed for improper conduct.  -The Australian 17 January 1827 

http://www.jenwilletts.com/searchaction.php?page=4&surname=&ship=mangles%201820&firstname=
122497 Norman' James; Ship-Mangles 1820; Date-25 November 1842 ; Place-Wollombi; Source-GG
Ticket of leave cancelled for gross assault

http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/searchhits_nocopy.aspx?table=Convict%20Index&ID=65&query=James%20Norman&frm=0

http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/searchhits_nocopy.aspx?table=Index%20to%20Convict%20Pardons&ID=21&query=James%20Norman&frm=0

[majm]

It can be tricky when seeking info from the 1840s, but have you contacted the archivist for Christ Church St Lawrence directly, to see if perhaps there's any further info (for example, a family sheet/register) which may note the ship of arrival or at least the year of arrival for the parents of those baptised in 1846.   (Or even their status?)

http://www.ccsl.org.au/

Several of my ancestors were parishioners in that era, I have marriages and baptisms (not necessarily in that order  ) in both the temporary and the main building in the 1840s

You may find that some early church records from the 1840s are now listed at the NSWBDM online index but they were not filmed initially and so may not be on the reels at NSW State Library, or on the discs.    

JM

[majm]

Also,  not all the ferguson newspapers have been digitised for uploading to trove, so it may be worthwhile having a long quiet uninterrupted session with the newspapers at the following link as he concentrated on the 1840-1845 period.

https://www.nla.gov.au/selected-library-collections/ferguson-collection

http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/browselist.html

JM