James Norman, Chippendale, 1846

[Dundee]

Do you know if Frederick was a shoemaker?  Could this be his father bribing him to come home in 1857?

IF FREDERICK NORMAN, who served his apprenticeship to William Norman, bootmaker, of Sydney, will return home to his father, at Brisbane Water, he will meet with every kindness, and £10 will be presented to him on arrival at home. JAMES NORMAN.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28633912

Another mention of William  NORMAN, shoemaker, with a son John.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/31755625

There was a shoemaker named William NORMAN transported on the Prince of Orange in 1820, born London, convicted Sussex, married Eliza DOUGLAS and son John baptised in 1828.

Debra 

[RoserAncestors]

Thank you all heaps, this is very very helpful. I'm going to do some searching and digest the information everyone has kindly supplied and I'll report back.

[RoserAncestors]

One thing I've noticed is that Frederick Norman was resident at Parramatta Road, Ashfield, when he died in 1881. There is an 1845 Trove article I've come across that refers to a James Norman, quarryman, and his wife "Nelly" who resided at "Parramatta Street": http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/59764723?searchTerm=%22james%20norman%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1845-01-01|||dateTo=1846-12-31|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||sortby

That's 36 years apart of course and maybe a coincidence, but I'll look at that too. I also saw the place Brisbane Water in some searching I did yesterday but have now forgotten exactly in which context, so that's a really interesting lead too.

[RoserAncestors]

I remembered where Brisbane Water came in - I was looking for marriage records for the daughter Mary Norman and saw one of a Mary A Norman to Alfred Kelly in Brisbane Water in 1866. I know that the son James Norman junior married Jane Paynter in Newcastle in 1864.

[Jamjar]

Mary Ann death?:

23067/1938 Mary Ann Kelly JAMES and BRIDGET ANNADALE

Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17535941

Funeral notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17535942

Husband: 5858/1937 Francis James Kelly PATRICK and MARY SYDNEY

Death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17356756


At Rookwood, buried with husband Francis James.

Catholic Mortuary 2 & 3 Section 15 Row 13 Grave 1119

Francis James Kelly 02 Apr 1937 77

Mary Ann Kelly 08 Nov 1938 81

Inscriptions: Our mother, Our father.

Jamjar

[Jamjar]

2311/1903 James Norman parents James and Bridget MACKSVILLE

The Sydney Stock and Station Journal
Friday, 23 January 1903, page 3
James Jnr death notice: NORMAN — January 8, at his residence, Lower Taylor's Arm, Nambucca River, James Norman, aged 59.

Wife of James? 1373/1922 Jane Norman parents Andrew and Ann MACKSVILLE

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article214836641

Obit: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article214835886


Jamjar

[RoserAncestors]

Thank you all again. I think I may have traced the Mary Norman who married Alfred Kelly in Brisbane Water in 1866. They seem to have had the following children:

Augusta 1871 Brisbane Water
Catherine Ann 1873 Brisbane Water
Bridget Sophie 1875 Brisbane Water
Patrick James 1878 Brisbane Water
George William 1881 Gosford

Alfred Kelly gets a few mentions on Trove I think:

A sawyer, insolvent, of East Gosford in 1865: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63512326?searchTerm=%22alfred%20kelly%22%20%22brisbane%20water%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1860-01-01|||dateTo=1870-12-31|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||sortby

Of Wyong, felloe cutter, 1892, insolvent: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113313321?searchTerm=%22alfred%20kelly%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||dateTo=1920-12-31|||notWords|||anyWords|||dateFrom=1866-01-01|||requestHandler|||sortby=dateAsc

Died at Wauchope in 1908 at son's house aged 87, well known at Gosford: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/135602933?searchTerm=%22alfred%20kelly%22%20wyong&searchLimits=l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||dateTo=1920-12-31|||dateFrom=1866-01-01|||sortby=dateAsc

His wife Mary Ann Kelly nee Norman seems to have died in 1920 in Kempsey - see this obituary which described her as late of Wauchope aged 77: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/174198372?searchTerm=%22mary%20kelly%22%20wauchope&searchLimits=l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||dateTo=1920-12-31|||dateFrom=1866-01-01|||sortby=dateAsc

Her parents are listed as William & Bridget on the NSW BDM index - I wonder if there is a mistake as to the father's name?

[Jamjar]

Yes, saw those, also.

Maybe get Patrick's death cert. I think he died in the 60s.

I didn't find the amount of births to the couple, as mentioned in Mary's obit.

Jamjar

Added, deaths: 23492/1965 Patrick James Kelly WAUCHOPE

4321/1877 Bridget S Kelly BRISBANE WATER

[RoserAncestors]

Just discovered with the help of someone on Ancestry who has all the certificates that the Mary Ann Norman who married Alfred Kelly was not the daughter of James Norman and Bridget Sheppard. She was the daughter of a William Norman and a Catherine Riley of Kincumber.

Perhaps the daughter of James & Bridget died young - there is a burial record in Sydney in 1846 on the NSW BDM index of a Mary Norman, infant. I'll have to check that one out on microfilm.