English / Blair Marriage - More help needed please

[Shiny1]

This is not specific to your question, but you might like to know that they married on 15 October 1910 - looks like it took place in a registry office.

Best Wishes

Thanks very much, that will help a lot, where did you find the date?

Michael

[River Tyne Lass]

I went through a very helpful website which I would recommend to anyone.  Google 'Margaret Hall Genealogy' then go onto  'Registrar's on-line BMD Indexes.  Click on the South Shields link.

or go direct to the website below to search for the marriage. It gives the date as 15/10/1910 and records that this is on register R88. 

 one.https://www.southtyneside.gov.uk/article/34814/Search-births-deaths-and-marriages-records

This may not be relevant in your particular search; however I have sometimes found that if a marriage takes place in a registry office it may be a second marriage for one or both partners.

I hope this is helpful.  Best Wishes with your researching.

[Trini]

Hi Michael,

Lots of people living in Milburn (or Milbourne) Place got married in South Shields.  Simple really ... it only took a ferry to get across (currently 7 minutes) and would have taken far longer to get all the way up to Christ Church if they were C of E.  Quite a few of mine did it, too

Trini.

[Tickettyboo]

That just leaves the puzzle of why her maiden name was Denham but her mam and dad are Cameron.

Michael

I read that and didn't have time to look but looked this afternoon. Get yourself a cuppa and a sandwich, this goes on a bit :-)
 I think there is a possibility that her "Mam and Dad" were, in fact her paternal grandparents well I think her "Mam" may have been her paternal Granny anyway.

24 Feb 1840 James Denham married Margaret A Moore at St Hilda South Shields (per south tyneside registrars index search)

1841 census Piece825,Book11, Folio31,Page18 Clive St, North Shields  - possible
Margt Denham, age 20 

Q4 1841 GRO Births Index, Isabella Denham, MMN Moor

15 Jan 1845 Henry Denham was born, 02 Mar 1825  baptised at Christ Church Tynemouth, son of James and Margaret Ann of Clive St  BTs  http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kbu/ GRO index gives MMN of Moor

1851 census Piece2409, Folio421, Page16
Clive St North Shields
James Denham, 34, Seaman, born Tweedmouth
Margaret Denham, 29, Born Shields
Isabella, 9, Born Shields
Henry, 6, born Shields

GRO Index has a Hugh Robert Denham, MMN Moore in Q1 1854, which would match for the 17 year old Hugh Robert 'Cameron' you saw on the 1871 census for the Cameron family - NB no Hugh Robert Cameron in the births index to correspond to this 'son'

I haven't found a death reg for James, nor anything in the newspaper, but he was a mariner so could have died anywhere.

Assuming that Margaret Ann was  widow by 1855:

Marriages 1855 Q3 James Cameron and Margaret Ann Moor - technically, her surname (if I am right) should have been given as Denham, but that could depend on what questions she was asked.



1865 - 14 March Shields Daily Gazette
Newcastle, At St Nicholas Church,  on 26th ultimo, Mr Henry Denham to Miss Elizabeth Magness, both of North Shields.

1866 GRO index no birth for a Margaret Ann Cameron in the right area, but there is a registration for a Margaret Ann Denham Q1 1866, Tynemouth, MMN Magnus  - not found a baptism for her on family search

1868 GRO Index, Q1 1868, Tynemouth. Birth  registration of Mary Jane Denham, MMN Magnus - baptism on Family Search  http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kbt/  there is also a possible death registration for Mary Jane Denham, aged 1, Tynemouth Q3 1869

Looks like the marriage was not a happy one:

1870 15 Feb Shields Daily Gazette
This is to give notice that I, Henry Denham, will not be answerable for any Debt or Debts my Wife, Elizabeth Denham may contract after this date
Feb 15, 15 Clive Street, North Shields

1871 census Piece5119, Folio3, Page56
Linsvale (?) St, North Shields
John Todd Head, 79
M A Magness, Daughter, 48
H Magness, daughter, 18
M H Denham, Granddaughter, 5 - perhaps the enumerator misread a A as an H?


1872 5th Jan Shields Daily Gazette:
A son assaulting his mother

Henry Denham was charged with assaulting Ann Cameron, his mother, on Tuesday afternoon last.  It appears that the defendant is a married man, but is not living with his wife at present, and on Tuesday afternoon he went to the complainant's house in company with a woman with whom he cohabits, and on his mother requesting him to go out of her house he assaulted her in a shameful manner, Two witnesses having been examined for the prosecution, the defendant's wife, who was in court was put in the box, and explained to the Bench that she had been married to the defendant five years and had one child. She was obliged to leave him about eighteen months ago on account of his keeping company with another woman, and during that time she had not received any maintenance whatever from him. The Bench sentenced the defendant to one month's imprisonment with hard labour, and strongly advised his wife to take proceedings for maintenance against him on being liberated from prison.

maybe Margaret Ann was also known just as Ann, or maybe the reporter couldn't read his own court notes and got her name slightly wrong.

Its not writ in stone, all a bit smoke and mirrors and needs checking and I'd like to have found a death for James Denham to make it more likely, but its a theory to be explored and considered.

Suggestions
The two (possible) marriages for Margaret Ann Moor(e)

1 James Denham and Margaret Ann Moore South Shields register ref CF1 - which according to the list is St Hilda
2 James Cameron and Margaret Ann, 5th Sep 1855  South Shields register ref CF8 - which according to the list is also St Hilda

South Shields library has these records on microfilm, if you can get there to see them then hopefully the details for Margaret Ann's father will confirm/deny that the bride was the same person? If the second one also says she was a widow then even better :-)

Boo

[Shiny1]

Hi Boo,

Sorry it's taken a while for me to reply, I've been trying to get my head around all of that fantastic information you have found for me. You have gone back about 3 generations further than the couple I was looking at and found some fantastic stories along the way.

I am going to try and get into South Shields library and get the information we need to confirm the marriage / death of James Denham. I do work over there reasonably frequently so I'm sure I can get in there soon.

I'll keep you updated.

Thanks again for all of your hard work.

Michael

[Tickettyboo]

Hi Boo,

Sorry it's taken a while for me to reply, I've been trying to get my head around all of that fantastic information you have found for me. You have gone back about 3 generations further than the couple I was looking at and found some fantastic stories along the way.

I am going to try and get into South Shields library and get the information we need to confirm the marriage / death of James Denham. I do work over there reasonably frequently so I'm sure I can get in there soon.

I'll keep you updated.

Thanks again for all of your hard work.

Michael

Its actually my idea of fun, so not hard work at all, I just did my usual method of looking through and collecting random bits of info, which 'may' (or may not!) end up gelling together to confirm the situation.
As I said its not writ in stone and the two marriage records would be a starting point to seeing if it is verifiable.

I'll check back in a week or so to see what you have been able to ascertain :-)

Boo

[Shiny1]

Hi All,

I have finally managed to get into South Shields library, it has answered some questions but also raised more.

     1 James Denham and Margaret Ann Moore South Shields register ref CF1 - which according to the list is St Hilda.

I have the register for this now, she was married exactly as stated and her father is listed as Henry Moore, a mariner.

     2 James Cameron and Margaret Ann, 5th Sep 1855  South Shields register ref CF8 - which according to the list is also St Hilda

I have this register entry as well. She is named as Margaret Ann Moor, a widow living in South Shields. This time though her father is named as Andrew Thompson who is also a mariner.

On both registers she has signed with an X so must have been illiterate, I presume that was reasonably common at that time?

While I was telling my parents about all of this and the puzzle about my mam's grandmother they produced the original marriage certificate! On it Robertina Blair says her home address at the time of her marriage in 1910 is 24 Ellesmere Street in South Shields even though the 1901 census and 1911 census both say her and William English (her future husband) live in North Shields.

Problem solved you would think, Robertina lived in South Shields for a short period of time. So for the sake of curiosity while I was in the library I had a look in the electoral rolls to see exactly when she was there.

In 1900 a man called Jeremiah Colvin lived at 24 Ellesmere Street and he is registered to vote at that address every year until 1924 (when I stopped looking). He is on the 1901 census at that address together with his wife Jane and no one else, his occupation is a waterman barge hopper, deck hand. The 1911 census says they are still at that address along with a 17 year old visitor called George Nilson and no one else.

That is not a name that I have ever seen in connection with our family and a deck hand doesn't strike me as someone who would have a servant - and even if he did, she isn't on the census.

New Questions

Does this mean Robertina has lied about her home address when she got married and if so why?

Why has Margaret Ann Moore changed who her father was?


This is turning into a real mystery,

Thanks for the help everyone.

Michael

[trish1120]

Hi Michael.

I'm going away for a few days so just checking in here so I can get notification and look at this when I get back.
Otherwise I am sure there are other that can help

[Shiny1]

OK Trish, thanks a lot.

Michael