Author Topic: Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?  (Read 1167 times)

Offline pinot

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Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?
« on: Saturday 01 July 17 00:15 BST (UK) »
Welsh speaker, follower of Poldark; I know little Cornish but am intrigued by its survival in place and personal names. 'Chynoweth' as a personal name - Carly etc -  is familiar as equivalent to the Welsh 'Tŷ Newydd' - New House, but wonder whether Trenwith is a made-up name or rather an English-accented version of Tre Nwith (or Noweth). 'w' is a vowel in Welsh, and can be a whole syllable, as in 'cwm', borrowed in English by geologists and mountaineers. I'd love to know.

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Offline giggsycat

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Re: Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 01 July 17 19:57 BST (UK) »
Hi Pinot

Apparently Winston Graham invented the Poldark Estate of Trenwith.

https://www.stmichaelshotel.co.uk/2015/03/30/real-poldark-locations/


Regards
Giggsy


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Offline dcbnwh

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Re: Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 02 July 17 09:36 BST (UK) »
This link might be of interest - https://www.houseofnames.com/trenwith-family-crest

The Cornish noweth/nowyth/newyth is the same as Welsh 'newydd' and Breton 'nevez', meaning new.

Trenoweth and Trenewydd mean new farm.

David

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Re: Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 02 July 17 09:51 BST (UK) »


Trenoweth and Trenewydd mean new farm.

David

Forgive me if my non-fluent Welsh is a bit rusty after lack of use over many years  but doesn't tre/tref mean town/settlement rather than farm?

Gadget

* so trenewydd would be new town
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Offline dcbnwh

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Re: Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 02 July 17 10:53 BST (UK) »
I think it can mean either:-

http://www.glen-johnson.co.uk/trenewydd/

http://www.alanrichards.org/placenames.html

Google translate does give it as Newtown and Tre newydd as new town.

David


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Re: Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 02 July 17 11:06 BST (UK) »
I was taking each component part and using my very old Welsh knowledge  (born and raised in North Wales and learned the language in school Welsh plus family and friends) :)

I see that in Cornish, Tre is used as both farm and town. Ty (Welsh) or Tigh (Gaelic) would be house. Also think that Cartref is a similar derivative.

Re your first link - do you have any other examples of Trenewydd translating to new farm or is it specific to that estate?

Gadget
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Offline dcbnwh

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Re: Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 02 July 17 13:35 BST (UK) »
There is another here - http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4886906

Other quotes:-

The prefix TRE is often found in place names or family names in Celtic parts of the British Isles. In Cornish and Welsh names Tre means a farm, home or homestead. In Wales, there is an optional spelling, Tref, while Pentref denotes a settlement larger than a village. So, Trederwen means home of the oak; Tregynon is the home of Cynon: Tremadoc is the town of Madoc, and so forth.

Treboeth wen Welsh: Tre= farm, settlement, boeth =hot, burning (burnt [land], burnt for clearing, dry, parched),
(g)wen = white or blessed, thus "white burnt farm"

tref ‹treev› feminine noun
PLURAL trefi ‹trê -vi›
Colloquial form: tre ‹tree›
y dref / y dre  the town
1 place names settlement, farmstead; township; village of freemen (in contrast to pentref, where the bondsmen lived)

Dre (mutation of 'tre')   a town, home

Tref or Tre - a town, habitation

Trefalun
ETYMOLOGY: “trêv (by) (Afon) Alun / (the river) Alun”)
(tref / tre = trêv, farm) + (Alun)

David

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Re: Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 02 July 17 13:40 BST (UK) »




tref ‹treev› feminine noun
PLURAL trefi ‹trê -vi›
Colloquial form: tre ‹tree›
y dref / y dre  the town
1 place names settlement, farmstead; township; village of freemen (in contrast to pentref, where the bondsmen lived)

Dre (mutation of 'tre')   a town, home

Tref or Tre - a town, habitation

Trefalun
ETYMOLOGY: “trêv (by) (Afon) Alun / (the river) Alun”)
(tref / tre = trêv, farm) + (Alun)

David

I think this is what I said/ how I translated tre/tref in my first posting on the subject so not sure why you're quoting it back to me   ;D



Trenoweth and Trenewydd mean new farm.

David

Forgive me if my non-fluent Welsh is a bit rusty after lack of use over many years  but doesn't tre/tref mean town/settlement rather than farm?

Gadget

* so trenewydd would be new town


Added


To answer Pinot's query, as far as I can see, Trenwith was a family name (see other threads on this board) and a sizeable estate near St Ives. Also, as Giggsy says, Winston Graham just made up Poldark's Trenwith  ;)
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Offline pinot

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Re: Trenwith (Poldark) - is it Kernowek?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 04 July 17 00:10 BST (UK) »
Thanks to all for your interest and replies; I think Giggsycat's reply comes closest to answering my query, with many useful contributions from others. I am aware that 'Tre' in a Welsh place name can simply mean 'abode', as in 'Trefeddyg' - Doctor's (Medic's) house, without any farming connotations. I only regret that the admirable Winston Graham chose to write 'Trenwith' instead of 'Trenoweth', which would have given the name an added (authentic) Celtic tinge. Morwenna's character, as I was reminded in the last episode, is , of course, a Chynoweth.  :D