Author Topic: John Robertson 1855 - ?  (Read 1707 times)

Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,639
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: John Robertson 1855 - ?
« Reply #9 on: Friday 07 July 17 10:39 BST (UK) »
Ah, that's all much better, and quite clear. It's always best to include everything you know already when you start a topic!

I think you are right about the unnamed child, and a few small discrepancies in age in later censuses are not unusual. However he was born on 15 December 1855 (the date in the IGI at FS is the date of birth, not the date of registration) so he was almost certainly married before he had had his birthday in 1888, in which case 32 is exactly correct. Also, the census was taken around the end of March or beginning of April, so on census day 1891 he would have been 35 years old, because his most recent birthday was in 1890. So if he said he was 34 in the 1891 census, that is only one year out.

There are a few things I would suggest. First, an 1855 birth (or any other) certificate contains lots of information that was never collected in any earlier or later year, so I would recommend getting a copy of it if you don't already have one. It will give you information that should lead to identifying Edward Johnstone and hence what became of him, your biological ancestor.

Second, have you found John in the 1861, 1871 or 1881 censuses? If he was living with Jane/Jean, this should confirm the identification with the unnamed child.

You say that Margaret's birth was registered as illegitimate. How, exactly, was her mother's name listed on her birth certificate?

If you have failed to find John's death in Scotland, I would certainly recommend looking in England, though this isn't going to be easy as it is such a common name, but at least you know that he was about 70 when Betsy died, which will cut down the number of candidates to consider. I can't see a likely candidate in Somerset, however. 

Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline anne_p

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,082
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Robertson 1855 - ?
« Reply #10 on: Friday 07 July 17 10:59 BST (UK) »
I had more than an idea that Jane Whitton wasn't married to Thomas Robertson
I spotted a census ( think it was 1881)  where she lived with her daughter Margaret and her name was entered as Jane Robertson or Whitton

It seems that son Thomas Walker Robertson  died in  Wiltshire  in 1952.
Probate suggests he was unmarried.

If William Duncan Robertson was their son, he married Annie Florence Daws in Devon in 1916 .
Travel docs suggest just one daughter born from the marriage.
The daughter may have been born overseas and this man died in Hatfield, Herts 1983.

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,639
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: John Robertson 1855 - ?
« Reply #11 on: Friday 07 July 17 11:27 BST (UK) »
The probate record is mildly interesting.

Robertson Thomas Walker of 10 Mount Pleasant Bradford-on-Avon Wiltshire died 9 March 1952 at Manor Hospital Bath. Probate Bristol 23 June to Leonard Henry Smith press photographer and Frances Louise Neal spinster. Effects 591 15s 7d.

The date of probate was less than four months after the death, so it wasn't a complicated case, and 591 15s 7d is not a large estate (equivalent to about 17,000 in 2017). The executors are not solicitors or bankers or accountants so either he must have named them in his will or they must be close enough kin to persuade the court to grant them probate.

If there is a will, it would clarify that.

Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline birdboot

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Robertson 1855 - ?
« Reply #12 on: Friday 07 July 17 11:32 BST (UK) »
Thanks again, Forfarian and Anne.  I did not have the Thomas Walker and William information.  I did find some of the Hancocks in the Blackburn area (where Betsy the daughter died).

I am not sure what you mean regarding the birth cert of 1855.  Will there be more than on the register?  I am not actually descended from John, but from Jean's father Robert Whitton.  Just trying to complete a family history of all Robert's children.  Jean's story has always fascinated me because it is so colourful.  For example, I wonder what happened to the money, about 15,000 in today's values, that she inherited from Thomas, as she apparently continued to be a charwoman/washerwoman.

Regarding Margaret, her mother's name is Jane Whitton, Washerwoman, though the next column for signature says Jean Whitton.  Jane's address looks like 104 Hawkhills, Dundee.

I previously found a possible census for Jean in 1861, a servant to Emily Durners(it looks like) and two sisters in Dundee.  Age is right, but birth says Alyth.  However, the sisters and all three servants just have ditto under Emily's Alyth, so could have been an enumerator being careless.

I haven't found Jean in 1871, nor a John and Jean that looked probable.

Incidentally, your query made me revisit my notes and I have been reminded that there is a burial in May 1850 in Dundee for Jane Whitton, 5 months, daughter of Jane Whitton.  I wonder if this is the previous 'child of marriage' shown deceased on the male Johnstone birth of 1855?

Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,639
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: John Robertson 1855 - ?
« Reply #13 on: Friday 07 July 17 11:44 BST (UK) »
I am not sure what you mean regarding the birth cert of 1855.  Will there be more than on the register?
What do you mean by 'the register'? If you have an image of the handwritten document, that is it. It should tell you where and when Edward and Jane (said they) were born, their ages, when and where they were married, how many other children they had had, and how many of them were still living.

Quote
Regarding Margaret, her mother's name is Jane Whitton, Washerwoman, though the next column for signature says Jean Whitton.  Jane's address looks like 104 Hawkhills, Dundee.
That is interesting, because from what you have told us I would have expected it to say Jane/Jean Johnstone, M(aiden) S(urname) Whitton. The next column is the signature of the person who registered the birth. So it looks as if Jane/Jean has, for some reason, reverted to using just her maiden surname. It's not unusual for a Jane/Jean to be formally named Jane, but to be generally known as, and even sign herself, Jean, so I wouldn't read anything into the difference in name between the columns.

Hawkhill is a main street on the west side of the city centre of Dundee.

Quote
Incidentally, your query made me revisit my notes and I have been reminded that there is a burial in May 1850 in Dundee for Jane Whitton, 5 months, daughter of Jane Whitton.  I wonder if this is the previous 'child of marriage' shown deceased on the male Johnstone birth of 1855?
Possibly. But if so this Jane shouldn't have been listed as a child of the marriage, because she must have been born before Jane/Jean married Edward Johnstone.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline birdboot

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Robertson 1855 - ?
« Reply #14 on: Friday 07 July 17 11:58 BST (UK) »
Sorry, I thought I had posted the image of the birth!

As mentioned, Jean is a complicated lady, so perhaps she had an illegitimate daughter in (about) Jan 1850 and then another one with (possibly) Edward Johnstone between the time of their marriage and the birth in 1855.

Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,639
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: John Robertson 1855 - ?
« Reply #15 on: Friday 07 July 17 12:33 BST (UK) »
Sorry, I thought I had posted the image of the birth!
Ah. I think, reading it all, that you are right and the baby who died in 1850 was her only child before the unnamed boy who must be John.

I do wonder what became of Edward, though!

Incidentally, the birth immediately above his is one of mine. James, son of James Guthrie and Elizabeth Drimmie. This baby grew up to be a jute spinner and merchant, and a major in the TVA, which I think was the equivalent to the Territorial Army now. He married, but had no family as far as I know, and died in Broughty Ferry in 1927.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline birdboot

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Robertson 1855 - ?
« Reply #16 on: Friday 07 July 17 16:52 BST (UK) »
Thanks again.  I think it is really odd that the only member of the Robertson family I can find in 1911 census is Thomas Robertson, who was a Commercial Traveller Margarine, visitor to Mr & Mrs Burt in Weymouth. This is in spite of looking in the Ancestry records, that should cover English and Scottish censuses.

In the census I found for Thomas, he had a wife Isabella, born Forfar, and had been married only a year.  I cannot find this marriage in Scotland, or in England, which is odd.  However, I am starting to think the whole family may have moved to England.  That still doesn't explain why they don't seem to be in English census records either.

I also have some notes of information I obtained from a grandson of Betsy Susan M and he believed he had been told that Betsy and her brother William ran a shop, possibly antiques, in Edinburgh. Her husband George Hancock was in the navy and he met her whilst visiting Edinburgh.  As they didn't marry until 1918 or 1919, that might place her and William in Edinburgh after 1911.  I don't know how reliable that info is though.


Offline rosie17

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,660
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Robertson 1855 - ?
« Reply #17 on: Friday 07 July 17 21:15 BST (UK) »
Hi all what about this probate record John Robertson of Paradise Villa Hewish Somersetshire  died 4.June 1933 Royal Infirmary Bristol ..Probate 28 August 1933 Thomas Walker Robertson commercial traveller ..

England &Wales death index
John Robertson
Birth year abt 1857
Date of Registration June 1933
Place Bristol Gloucestershire
Age 76

Rosie