Gretna Green Marriages

[Treetotal]

If anyone would like a bigger version of the marriage cert. for their family file please let me know 
Carol

[buckhyne]

My reading of that is that a sixth of all weddings in Scotland are performed at Gretna Green.
If that is true then wow!

I don't think so. I found that too hard to believe so I did a wee bit of analysis of the marriage indexes at SP.

I looked at marriages of people with the 10 commonest surnames in Scotland according to a little booklet titled 'Personal Names in Scotland' and published by the Registrar General in 1991. For each surname I noted how many marriages were registered in the whole of Scotland from 1855 onwards, and how many of those were registered in Gretna, which is also known as Graitney. These are the results:

Surname   Total          at Gretna   % at Gretna
Smith   93085   3373          3.6
Brown   68147   1596          2.3
Wilson   62642   1256          2.0
Stewart   51010   626          1.2
Thomson   55044   443          0.8
Campbell   54321   656          1.2
Robertson   57183   457          0.8
Anderson   50075   310          0.6
Scott    40437   759          1.9
Macdonald   28919   273          0.9
all 10    560863   9749          1.7

So just 1.7% of marriages of people with the ten commonest surnames in Scotland were in the Gretna registration district. That is about one in sixty, not one in six.

One detail that is intriguing is that 3.6% of Smiths get married at Gretna, which is double the overall percentage and over 50% higher than the next highest.

I'm sure that, given the time and enthusiasm, one could extract a lot more in the way of statistics from the SP indexes, but I reckon that is enough to give the lie to the 'one in six' myth.

Excellent work but you are looking at Gretna (or Graitney) and no Gretna Green.
As I pointed out in my first post the Gretna Green marriage of Thomas Lawrie & Margaret Beauly of 1875 cannot be found on SP under Gretna or anywhere else.
Therefore it and many others are missing from the SP marriage index.
According to the link Falkyrn provided:
…In fact, irregular marriages notified to the registrar were infrequent in Scotland in the mid-nineteenth century, and fewer than 100 per year took place between 1855 and 1870.
Which would mean that there are lots of marriages (irregular) missing from the SP index.

[StevieSteve]

Looked at the wikipedia article for a citation and see that the "fact" was removed in Oct 16

(Removed the comment that "1 in 6 Scottish weddings are in Gretna Green", which is highly unlikely as there were less than 5,000 marriages in the whole of Dumfries and Galloway (out of a total of 29,691 Scottish marriages) in 2015!)

Not sure how I feel about things being deleted because they're unlikely (Leicester City won the Premier League? Nah, too unlikely, ERASE) but there you go

[RJ_Paton]

Which would mean that there are lots of marriages (irregular) missing from the SP index.

Yes, but I think you misunderstand the nature of the records and of irregular marriage itself.

The Marriage records on Scotland's People are the State/Official records of Regular Marriages and of those limited number of Irregular marriages where the couple wanted their marriage recorded.

Marriage in Scotland has long been seen as a personal contract between the parties involved - and just as in business or in life itself not every agreement between individuals needs the full power of the law to make it happen- whether it took place in Gretna Green or St Giles Cathedral.

Irregular marriages were technically a criminal act - they were considered a form of Clandestine marriage - but both the legal system and the Church tolerated them. The borders area is relatively unique in that so many businesses kept records of what happened , but these records were the records of individuals and private businesses.

When Civil registration was introduced there were further Acts of Parliament to refine the system and part of the system was an introduction of a method of regulation of irregular marriages - couples had 90 days from the event to gather witnesses statements etc have them presented to a Sheriff who if satisfied that everything was as it should be would issue a Warrant in Declarator (sometimes referred to as a Sherrifs declaration) which the couple could take to the registrar and have their marriage recorded by the State. Missing this 90 day deadline meant the very expensive route of going to the Court of Session in Edinburgh to seek a declarator. (until 1916 another route was available in that either of the couple could go to a lesser court , a JP or Magistrate, have themselves charged with the criminal act of Clandestine marriage and when found guilty use this conviction to have the marriage registered.
Thankfully even today we have not yet come to the point where the State records our every movement or action.

[buckhyne]

Looked at the wikipedia article for a citation and see that the "fact" was removed in Oct 16

(Removed the comment that "1 in 6 Scottish weddings are in Gretna Green", which is highly unlikely as there were less than 5,000 marriages in the whole of Dumfries and Galloway (out of a total of 29,691 Scottish marriages) in 2015!)

Not sure how I feel about things being deleted because they're unlikely (Leicester City won the Premier League? Nah, too unlikely, ERASE) but there you go

Well spotted Stevie.
I am a member of a Scottish Genealogy website and it was in 2015 that I started a thread regarding Gretna Green.
I just recently unearthed the thread and posted it on here, hence the pre-2016 wikipedia entry.
I posted this query in 2015 regarding the wikipedia claim that 1 in 6 marriages in Scotland are performed in Gretna Green.
There was a reply from a Librarian in Dumfries.
Aye Willie, the bit about the number of modern weddings in and around Gretna Green and the 1 in 6 statistic is true. Gretna registration office has so much work to do with marriages that birth and death registrations are normally taken at other offices instead - usually Annan but also Lockerbie and Moffat or wherever it is convenient for the person requiring the service. The bulk of the work in Dumfries office is deaths and births.

"1 in 6 Scottish weddings are in Gretna Green", which is highly unlikely as there were less than 5,000 marriages in the whole of Dumfries and Galloway
But my point is that the 5,000 marriages in Dumfries & Galloway are officially registered ones.
How many 'irregular marriages' are there?
I suppose no many now (but I have no idea) but taken over the years since the statutory marriages were enforced from 1855 onwards there must be loads.

[Gan Yam]

Looked at the wikipedia article for a citation and see that the "fact" was removed in Oct 16

(Removed the comment that "1 in 6 Scottish weddings are in Gretna Green", which is highly unlikely as there were less than 5,000 marriages in the whole of Dumfries and Galloway (out of a total of 29,691 Scottish marriages) in 2015!)

Not sure how I feel about things being deleted because they're unlikely (Leicester City won the Premier League? Nah, too unlikely, ERASE) but there you go

If you search SP for marriages in 2015 it returns 9117 for Dumfries and of those 7846 took place in Gretna!

[Forfarian]

Excellent work but you are looking at Gretna (or Graitney) and no Gretna Green.

Gretna Green is in the parish/RD of Gretna or Graitney.

Which would mean that there are lots of marriages (irregular) missing from the SP index.

Quite possibly.

Let us assume, for the moment, that it is true that one in six marriages in Scotland took place in the parish of Gretna or Graitney, mostly at Gretna Green which is in that parish. Then the total number of marriages of people with these ten commonest surnames in that parish/RD would be ten times the number of marriages actually registered, which is 9,749. So that, between 1855 and 2016, 97,490 marriages of Smiths, Browns, Wilsons, Stewarts, Thomsons, Campbells, Robertson, Andersons, Scotts and Macdonalds would have been performed at Gretna Green or in the same parish/RD.

I looked at the 1911 census data. The total population of Scotland was 4,759,445, and the ten commonest surnames accounted for 439,886 people, which is 9.24% of the population.

So assuming that the distribution of surnames in 1911 was not radically different from that in any other year, that would mean that the total number of marriages conducted in the parish of Gretna or Graitney was 1,053,946. Divide that by the number of years from 1855 to 2016 (162) and that would mean that 6506 weddings a year, or 18 weddings every day of the year including Sundays, were conducted at Gretna (Green) or Graitney.

This contrasts sharply with the remarks of the minister of Graitney, who in 1793 commented on the regrettable notoriety of his parish. "This parish has been long famous in the annals of matrimonial adventure, for the marriages of fugitive lovers from England , which have been celebrated here. People living at a distance erroneously suppose, that the regular and established clergyman of this parish is the celebrator of those marriage; Whereas the persons who follow this illicit practice, are mere impostors, priests of their own erection, who have no right whatever, either to marry, or to exercise any part of the clerical function. There are, at present, more than one of this description in this place. But the greatest part of the trade is monopolised by a man who was originally a tobacconist, and not a blacksmith, as is generally believed. He is a fellow without literature, without priciples, without morals, and without manners. His life is a continued scene of drunkenness. His irregular conduct has rendered him and object of detestation to all the sober and virtuous part of the neighbourhood. Such is the man (and the description is not exaggerated) who has had the honour to join, in the sacred bonds of wedlock, many people of great rank and fortune from all parts of England. It is 40 years and upwards since marriages of this kind began to be celebrated here. At the lowest computation about 60 are supposed to be solemnized annually in this place."

The '40 years' is about right, because the practice began following the passing of the Marriage Act in 1754, which required all marriages in England and Wales, except those of Jews and Quakers, to be celebrated by a priest of the Church of England.

The minister in 1834, in the News Statistical Account, also referred to iregular marriages. "The far-famed marriages of Gretna Green are celebrated, it is said, to the number of three or four hundred annually." That is a long way short of one in six of all marriages in Scotland.

I am not taking issue with anything else in this thread; merely attempting to debunk the assertion that one in six of all marriages in Scotland wer conducted at Gretna Green.

[buckhyne]

Which would mean that there are lots of marriages (irregular) missing from the SP index.

Yes, but I think you misunderstand the nature of the records and of irregular marriage itself.

The Marriage records on Scotland's People are the State/Official records of Regular Marriages and of those limited number of Irregular marriages where the couple wanted their marriage recorded.
.......

Thankfully even today we have not yet come to the point where the State records our every movement or action.

Falkyrn I understand what you are saying but I'm only pointing out that for all of the regular marriages on SP there are an unknown number of irregular marriages not in the SP marriage index.
As someone else pointed out probably the majority of these irregular marriages are of non-Scots.
As I'm 100% Scotch at least as far back as the mid 18th century I'm no really concerned as to their availability 

Thankfully even today we have not yet come to the point where the State records our every movement or action
That's no true.
I have birth, marriage & death certificates of my 19th century ancestors.
I also have their age, address & employment from all the censuses from 1841 onwards.
Also newspaper reports on some of them.
In the present day I imagine some government officials have access to my birth & marriage & census returns.
They could also possibly have access to my medical history and schooling.
Big Brother IS watching! 
 

[buckhyne]

Excellent work but you are looking at Gretna (or Graitney) and no Gretna Green.

Gretna Green is in the parish/RD of Gretna or Graitney.
_______________________
But you won't find a marriage from Gretna Green in the statutory marriages in SP.
Or if you do it would be one of the few 'irregular' marriages which were officially registered.

Which would mean that there are lots of marriages (irregular) missing from the SP index.

Quite possibly.

Let us assume, for the moment, that it is true that one in six marriages in Scotland took place in the parish of Gretna or Graitney, mostly at Gretna Green which is in that parish. Then the total number of marriages of people with these ten commonest surnames in that parish/RD would be ten times the number of marriages actually registered, which is 9,749. So that, between 1855 and 2016, 97,490 marriages of Smiths, Browns, Wilsons, Stewarts, Thomsons, Campbells, Robertson, Andersons, Scotts and Macdonalds would have been performed at Gretna Green or in the same parish/RD.

I looked at the 1911 census data. The total population of Scotland was 4,759,445, and the ten commonest surnames accounted for 439,886 people, which is 9.24% of the population.

So assuming that the distribution of surnames in 1911 was not radically different from that in any other year, that would mean that the total number of marriages conducted in the parish of Gretna or Graitney was 1,053,946. Divide that by the number of years from 1855 to 2016 (162) and that would mean that 6506 weddings a year, or 18 weddings every day of the year including Sundays, were conducted at Gretna (Green) or Graitney.

This contrasts sharply with the remarks of the minister of Graitney, who in 1793 commented on the regrettable notoriety of his parish. "This parish has been long famous in the annals of matrimonial adventure, for the marriages of fugitive lovers from England , which have been celebrated here. People living at a distance erroneously suppose, that the regular and established clergyman of this parish is the celebrator of those marriage; Whereas the persons who follow this illicit practice, are mere impostors, priests of their own erection, who have no right whatever, either to marry, or to exercise any part of the clerical function. There are, at present, more than one of this description in this place. But the greatest part of the trade is monopolised by a man who was originally a tobacconist, and not a blacksmith, as is generally believed. He is a fellow without literature, without priciples, without morals, and without manners. His life is a continued scene of drunkenness. His irregular conduct has rendered him and object of detestation to all the sober and virtuous part of the neighbourhood. Such is the man (and the description is not exaggerated) who has had the honour to join, in the sacred bonds of wedlock, many people of great rank and fortune from all parts of England. It is 40 years and upwards since marriages of this kind began to be celebrated here. At the lowest computation about 60 are supposed to be solemnized annually in this place."

The '40 years' is about right, because the practice began following the passing of the Marriage Act in 1754, which required all marriages in England and Wales, except those of Jews and Quakers, to be celebrated by a priest of the Church of England.

The minister in 1834, in the News Statistical Account, also referred to iregular marriages. "The far-famed marriages of Gretna Green are celebrated, it is said, to the number of three or four hundred annually." That is a long way short of one in six of all marriages in Scotland.

I am not taking issue with anything else in this thread; merely attempting to debunk the assertion that one in six of all marriages in Scotland wer conducted at Gretna Green.

Again well done on your research.
You have taken the 10 most common names in Scotland to use in your calculations.
Surely most of the 'irregular' marriages at Gretna Green were non-Scots?

...Divide that by the number of years from 1855 to 2016 (162) and that would mean that 6506 weddings a year, or 18 weddings every day of the year including Sundays, were conducted at Gretna (Green) or Graitney.
But there is no central depository of Gretna Green marriages therefore you have no idea of how many irregular marriages were performed.
You would have to call it the X factor.

You called it Gretna (Green) or Graitney.
SP call it Gretna with no acknowledgement of a Green.