Author Topic: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.  (Read 3709 times)

Offline Moffitt77

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Re: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
« Reply #27 on: Monday 10 July 17 23:13 BST (UK) »
Brilliant Shaun. I Hoped that he had married a Parker because of JPJ's middle name. He was 35. I wonder if it was a second marriage?

My next move is to see if Frederick Joyce, who establisjphed a business making percussion caps and sporting ammunition in 1820, is connected to this family. Before that I think that the Joyce's, including a James, worked from various tenement blocks in London.. It is a very weak clue but Fred is listed as having a bank account alongside the Beckingham Joyces between 1868 and 1886.His factory was at 57 Upper Thames Street in the 1860's from New Zealand advertisements. The Head Office later moved to Kingsway House, Kingsway, LondonWC.

In 1851, Frederick Joyce was engaged in discussion with the Board of Health about the neglect of the local body of Twaltham Abbey. Fred's address at that time was Farmhill House, Waltham Abbey, Essex.

I have not found any personal records for Fred. I did find a birth/baptism for a Frederick Frank Joyce, b 21 Feb 1870, Abbots Inn, Hampshire.

James Parker Joyce did say that he was from Southhampton, and that his father was a writer, but this is oral history only.
James Parker Joyce named his son Frederick

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Offline Moffitt77

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Re: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
« Reply #28 on: Monday 10 July 17 23:20 BST (UK) »
I had not seen the will of John Joyce before. Thank you for that. I don't know how to access wills. The list of names you have included from the will explains the group who held the bank account with the London Bank. I thought that they must be some sort of family company. In a way they were, managing the estate affairs.

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Offline Moffitt77

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Re: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 11 July 17 00:01 BST (UK) »
Hi Shaun. I have checked the Newspaper in which the obituary appeared and Ithink that the date of 1824 comes from a mistake in the writer's addition when subtracting 68 from 1903. We would like the birth to be 1824 because it would make his early life seem more realistic. If he was in Australia in 1851 he would have been barely 17 and that is young to have done all of the listed things - which I think are probably in the wrong order, both in New Zealand and earlier.

William Brunton had a second factory in North Wales. In New Zealand he seemed to find a place to stay put, and to focus on his engineering skills. He and JPJ must have been close, because WB was involved in backing JPJ in his successful entry into politics. I think that I would have liked JPJ. He got into some fearful verbal battles with other newsmen and readers at times. He was very definite about what he thought.

Yes, Dorset has figured largely in my search for JPJ. He could slot very nicely amongst the descendants of James or John Joyce from WhiteMill, Shapwick, Blandford, and the Isle of Wight. 
There is one James Joyce there, but he died in 1868 and  another gap where he could fit into a family of thirteen, but I just cannot find him there. Their pattern of life and occupations would match the many things that he did.

We have also found a James Joyce born in Portsea on JPJ's birthday 17 March 1834. His father, also James Joyce was a Seaman aboard HMS vessels, tracked back to Limerick b 1809, and who died in 1851. The child was never found in residence with his mother, and I could not find a death for him, so it is still a live search. That is where the boy in Jersey and a couple of other lads working away from home figure in my search, but no luck there either. I think that this is a blind search, even though I found out that this James Joyce and another of my great great grandfathers had been on the same ship, HMS Britannia in 1851 on their way to Crimea. Unbelievable really.

This family of John Joyce of Beckington is by far the best fit, so far. The fact that he looks like my father did in old age, and that my father is named for his home at Clifford Villas is like the icing on the cake! I will keep searching for any other sons of John above. Maybe the cake is there under the icing!!

Offline Annette7

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Re: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 11 July 17 02:26 BST (UK) »
Found another son - Felix Carey Bailey Joyce bc.1816 - married an Anne Withers 12/5/1846 Norton St. Philip, Somerset.  Occupation shown as Tradesman, father John Joyce, Tradesman.  Sadly, he died some 17 days later.

Something that doesn't seem to have been touched on is that John and Mary didn't seem to baptise any of their children themselves in Beckington, which was where they were all born.

However, it looks like 5 of their children were baptised as adults (so, subsequently, no parents details are given.  These are on FreeReg:

John Joyce bp.7/7/1839
Eliza Joyce     ditto
Daniel Joyce   ditto
Ann Joyce      ditto
Felix Joyce  bp.7/6/1840.

Note only their first Christian names shown on their adult baptisms.

Felix's baptism entry is a gem - at the bottom is added that he died 29/5/1846, 18 days after he'd married Anne Withers (actually it's 17 days as they married on the 12th), he was in his 30th year and was buried 10/6/1846 Naunton Chapel (not sure where this was, as only one I can find is in Gloucestershire).

I'm afraid I'm another who thinks the 1824 birthdate is more likely to be correct for James Parker Joyce.  No way could he have done all that is shown in the obituary by the age of 16 when he was in the goldfields in Victoria 1851.   I did note a James Joyce aged 29 (i.e. bc.1825) left Victoria for Adelaide on the 'Seaton' in January 1854 and wondered if this was him leaving Victoria and subsequently then leaving Adelaide at some point for NZ.

From witnesses at marriages, adult baptisms, etc. the children of John and Mary seem to be as follows (with possibly slight variations on the dates):
1. James Bailey Joyce (eldest son) bc.1803 married Jane Wace 12/9/1837 London
2. Daniel Bailey Joyce bc.1807 (bp.7/7/1839) married Eliza Hall 8/12/1835 Ashmore, Dorset
3. Lydia Joyce bc.1810 married John Edward Francis Frowd 18/2/1836
4. Mary Joyce bc.1812 married Peter Keevil 1839
5. Felix Carey Bailey Joyce bc.1816 married Anne Withers 12/5/1846
6. Jesse Powell Joyce bc.1817 married Jane Plaister 1839
7. John Wallis/Wallace Joyce bc.1820 married Mary Ann Parkhouse 1851
8. Ann Vincent Joyce bc.1824 married Ebenezer Gough 1846
9. Eliza Joyce b.? (adult baptism in 1839)
10. Maryanne Joyce (witness at various marriages) b.?

I cannot honestly see how your James Parker Joyce would fit into this particular family.

Annette

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Offline ShaunJ

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Re: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 11 July 17 06:10 BST (UK) »
Quote
The list of names you have included from the will explains the group who held the bank account with the London Bank. I thought that they must be some sort of family company.

Those are just the executors. You can order a full copy of the will with its 4 codicils using the link I provided.
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Offline ShaunJ

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Re: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 11 July 17 07:39 BST (UK) »
Going back to the reason that you are interested in this family:

Quote
The death notice of James Bailey Joyce appeared in New Zealand newspapers.

This seems likely to be connected with the fact that his daughter Anna Wace Joyce was living in Christchurch at the time with her husband William Joyce. 

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP18710419.2.13?query=wace%20joyce

It appears that they married in New Zealand in 1867.
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Offline Moffitt77

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Re: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 11 July 17 08:53 BST (UK) »
Annette, you are a gem. This has helped me immensely. Now I must move on or back to one of my other search avenues to find him. A couple of loose ends remain. Did one of the sons, maybe James Bailey have a previous marriage? Did one of the daughters have a child to a Parker before marriage?
Did John Joyce, born 1777-9 have a relevant brother? Someone was being searched for in New Zealand via newspaper at the time of John Bailey's death. That was the practice of families in notifying people here of family disasters. I will always wonder who it was for.

When all else fails I will have another look at two men who were dismissed as possibilities for several reasons! One James Joyce from Kerry was tried 1/11/1949, and transported via Ship 'Ramilles' 7/8/1854; and the other James Joyce was deported to Tasmania, on 31/7/1852 after his 'case' on 10/7/1849 in Southampton. At the time I could get no information beyond that.

I have been going back over old notes to get ideas. We gave up on the birth in Southampton long ago as a letter to authorities found nothing. Like you though, I feel convinced that JPJ could have been one who needed to lower his age to fit the criteria for the ship or to get a lower fare as a minor or some other reason.

Herries-Beattie, a very reliable historian, claimed that JPJ was born in Southampton, and also that he received his education there. Further he said that JPJ told him that his father was a journalist, a 'newspaper writer' to be exact. JPJ's death certificate, gives his father's name a James Joyce as well. It is not much to go on, but much more is available for searching. I always consider the possibility of an earlier birth than 1824. Maybe the mistake in the obituary was a deliberate one??

I have a letter from a Council Archivist in Southampton many decades ago which names only two men named James Joyce, both with dates well after JPJ came here - hosier in 1861, and a hatter/shirt maker in 1878, probably the same individual.

I have had little experience in looking for school records outside New Zealand. Would there have been a central customs department at that time which has records?




Offline ShaunJ

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Re: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 11 July 17 08:59 BST (UK) »
I've given you the connection between James Bailey Joyce and New Zealand (his daughter Anna).
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Offline Moffitt77

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Re: John Joyce of Beckington, 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 11 July 17 09:09 BST (UK) »
Thank you Shaun. You were quick to follow up on the Wace name. Now I am wondering where William Joyce, her husband fits or does not fit. They are, of course, the logical recipients of the message. That is what I set out to find out at the beginning

Please forgive the typos in my previous post. I am searching for a birth date close to 1824, not necessarily BEFORE 1824. My fingers are getting very old!

Yes, I figured that the group was more than just a family one and were executors. I should be more precise. I did get sidetracked for ages looking for them. There is so much about their families, and I love the language, eg how Keevil changes from that spelling to Keevill, Kevil, Keovil, etc.

Thank you again