KEIR/BRAND/FERGUSON of Perth, HELP!

[EBrand]

Hi there, my request may be specific, but I'm following a lead of possible relatives.

My issue is that my convict ancestor (George) was transported from Scotland to Australia in 1852. It is believed that he was born to David Brand and Janet Spittal, however I am having a hard time confirming this. I have a birth certificate for George with the parents Janet and David in 1816 in Culross, however there was another George born in 1820 to a John Brand and an Isabella Anderson. My George didn't have his parents names on his death certificate, and we have no keepsakes to say who his parents were.

I am now following a lead, as I know of other offspring of Janet Spittal and David Brand, to see if I can either get in contact with their descendants or find out information somehow that links my convict George to that particular family. I would love to confirm the link, as I've been stuck behind this brick wall for ages and have no idea how to get past it.

I know that one of David and Janet's children, so possibly a brother to my George, was David Brand (b.1810), and he married a Janet Ferguson in 1833 in Tulliallan, Perth. They had four children that I know of, Jane Macgeorge Brand (1837), David Brand (1839), Isobel Brand (1833) and Janet Spittal Brand (1835). I also know that Janet Spittal Brand married an Adam KEIR (1819-1905) and had 6 children (that I know of).

If anyone has any information or any idea where I could go next, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thank you.

[Geoff]

Hi EBrand,

Have you checked the log for the ship he came out to Australia on?
The NSW Government Index for convicts may help you. With you having his name this list will tell you what ship he came out on, all the ship & immigration logs are on film, you will need the Reel Number to give you the correct film. If nothing else they should give you clues to follow up with.
These can be viewed at most good size libraries, where they have a Family History Section if your not close to your Gov Records Office.

Hope you have some success.
Geoff

[EBrand]

Hi EBrand,

Have you checked the log for the ship he came out to Australia on?
The NSW Government Index for convicts may help you. With you having his name this list will tell you what ship he came out on, all the ship & immigration logs are on film, you will need the Reel Number to give you the correct film. If nothing else they should give you clues to follow up with.
These can be viewed at most good size libraries, where they have a Family History Section if your not close to your Gov Records Office.

Hope you have some success.
Geoff

Thanks Geoff!

George came to Western Australia so I'm not sure that the NSW Government Index would have him on there. I do know the ship he came on, the "Stag" in 1855, snd I've done many searches for his name, and all I end up with is a description of George. I can't find the listing of his parents.

Would there be anywhere in any convict record that would have to state the parentage?

EB

[MonicaL]

Have you tried checking any for any court/trial papers for George Brand in Scotland.

This is the site to check for this http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx  Just insert the name George Brand and click for exact search/phrase.

    
Reference    AD14/52/373
Title    Precognition against George Donnelly, Alexander Burt, William Murphy, George Brand, Samuel Rea, Joseph Donnelly for the crime of reset of theft from goods trains or trucks at Edinburgh, Falkirk, Stirling and Glasgow and elsewhere in Stirling
Dates 1852

Accussed: .....George Brand, married, Age: 31, potato dealer, Address: Larbert, Stirlingshire.....

Reference    JC26/1852/398
Accused:....George Brand, married, Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Guilty in terms of own confession - third, fourth and seventh charges, Sentence: Transportation - 14 years Previous convictions: theft - Stirling sheriff court, 6 August 1849. Note: The Advocate Depute withdrew the remaining charges....

Given George's age and the fact that he was married, unlikely trial papers would include his parents' names I would think.

Monica 

[MonicaL]

From those details, this is likely him in 1851:

George Brand 31 agr labourer b. Perth - Culross
Isabella D Brand 31 b. Perth - Muthill
David Brand 10 b. Stirlingshire - Denny https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTLM-JDW
Isabella Brand 8 b. Stirlingshire - Denny https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT21-JS3
Andrew Brand 6 b. Stirlingshire - Denny   
George Brand 3 b. Stirlingshire - Stirling https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT2W-K2K

Address: Larbert Village, Larbert, Stirlingshire

Did wife and children join George in later years? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:1:M7JR-HT8

Monica

[MonicaL]

Are you familiar with Scottish Naming pattern? Not always followed in order, or at all. However, it often was and can be a good guide to possible ancestors' names.

Lots of of links if you google for it. This is one www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm

With Isabella Duncan showing as born in Muthill, I wondered if this is her birth entry here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQW3-2Z6

If so, you could have:

David - for George's father
Isabella - for Isabella's mother
Andrew - for Isabella's father
George - could be for George himself or family member such as g/father

Just missing a name for a second born daughter that could help if called after possible mother Janet that you have pencilled in for George.

Monica

[MonicaL]

Ahhh....looks like you have all of this already  www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=772727.0

Monica

[majm]

Hi there, my request may be specific, but I'm following a lead of possible relatives.

My issue is that my convict ancestor (George) was transported from Scotland to Australia in 1852. It is believed that he was born to David Brand and Janet Spittal, however I am having a hard time confirming this. I have a birth certificate for George with the parents Janet and David in 1816 in Culross, however there was another George born in 1820 to a John Brand and an Isabella Anderson. My George didn't have his parents names on his death certificate, and we have no keepsakes to say who his parents were.

I am now following a lead, as I know of other offspring of Janet Spittal and David Brand, to see if I can either get in contact with their descendants or find out information somehow that links my convict George to that particular family. I would love to confirm the link, as I've been stuck behind this brick wall for ages and have no idea how to get past it.

I know that one of David and Janet's children, so possibly a brother to my George, was David Brand (b.1810), and he married a Janet Ferguson in 1833 in Tulliallan, Perth. They had four children that I know of, Jane Macgeorge Brand (1837), David Brand (1839), Isobel Brand (1833) and Janet Spittal Brand (1835). I also know that Janet Spittal Brand married an Adam KEIR (1819-1905) and had 6 children (that I know of).

If anyone has any information or any idea where I could go next, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thank you.

Hi,

Err ... 1852 ...  no, he was not transported in 1852.     You mention you have birth certificates for two possible George BRAND babies.    I would expect these certificates to include at least the name of one parent, and the place of birth, date of birth etc.   When George married he would have given information to the clergy ... including his Dad's name and occupation, and possibly his own age and occupation.   That should help you determine if your George is the son of David or of John or of someone else. 

Anyways, following up on a convict transported to the colony of Western Australia ...

There’s a George BRAND, aged 35, arriving on the Stag in May 1855, (so born c 1820) under a sentence of 14 years for Theft.  Trial place was Edinburgh in 1852.    See for summaries, likely based on AJCP microfilm.   
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/con-wa15.html  and 
https://convictrecords.com.au/ships/stag/1855
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/australian-joint-copying-project


Extracted from some newspapers:

Glasgow Herald 7 November 1851
Extensive Railway Thefts ….
Although every enquiry was made, no trace ….. until Sunday last when three large bales …. Found concealed in the vicinity of Bonnybridge….  A watch was set ….. resulted in the apprehension of an old offender named George Brand, who was at one time a porter in the service of the Scottish Central Railway Company…


Glasgow Herald 23 Feb 1852
The Railway Thefts .
The following parties have been indicted to stand their trial in the High Court of Justiciary, at Edinburgh on Monday the 1st March, in connection with the late extensive thefts on the Scottish Central and Edinburgh and Glasgow Railways in the neighbourhood of Falkirk, viz:- George Brand, William Murphy, Alexander Burt, George Donnelly, Samuel Rea, and Joseph Donnelly.

Caledonian Mercury  4 March 1852
High Court of Justiciary
Extensive Robberies at Greenhill Junction…
The High Court sat on Monday …
George Brand …. Placed at the bar, charged with the theft and reset of several parcels of valuable goods from the trucks of goods trains … on various occasions …from September 1850 to October 1851.   … and no fewer than 183 witnesses were summoned…. Brand pleaded guilty …. After some consultation, the several pleas tendered by the prisoners were accepted … jury was dismissed…

Certificates of character were then read by the counsel for the prisoners, in mitigation of sentence …. 

Brand to fourteen years transportation,  Murphy to ten years,  Burt to seven years, G Donnelly to seven years,  Rea to seven years and J Donnelly to twelve months imprisonment. 


I wonder about those ‘Certificates of Character’ … would there be mention of George’s origins, his parents, siblings,  his childhood …    I am in NSW Australia and I have no knowledge of researching Scottish court records from the 1850s.

JM

[EBrand]

Are you familiar with Scottish Naming pattern? Not always followed in order, or at all. However, it often was and can be a good guide to possible ancestors' names.

Lots of of links if you google for it. This is one www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm

With Isabella Duncan showing as born in Muthill, I wondered if this is her birth entry here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQW3-2Z6

If so, you could have:

David - for George's father
Isabella - for Isabella's mother
Andrew - for Isabella's father
George - could be for George himself or family member such as g/father

Just missing a name for a second born daughter that could help if called after possible mother Janet that you have pencilled in for George.

Monica

Thanks for your help, Monica! I hadn't thought about following Isabella's line, and that could very possibly be my Isabella. It's very interesting about the naming pattern, this would probably be the most likely case. I just got confused because their last daughter, Irene, who was stillborn doesn't match the naming pattern, and the names of other prospective grandparents, Isobella and John have the names present in George's children. John was born in Western Australia and Irene was stillborn in WA.

EB