Death Record - 1892 - Preston - CAUGHLIN

[CaroleW]

GRO maiden name search is only showing that one birth but I can't find either Thomas or Jane on the 1861 either

[josey]

There are these births as well....
COGHLAN, ANN  MARGARET     WATTS     
GRO Reference: 1864  M Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 167
COCHLAN, ANNIE       DOWNS     
GRO Reference: 1864  D Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 39

[bullydogs22]

Here is the info. I have so far

1.  1876 - Catherine Coughlin at 3 Balliol Terrace, Bootle, has a son Joseph.  No father listed.

2.  1878 - That same Catherine Coughlin lists her address as Wright Street and her father as George who is a carter marries a William Thomas.

3.  1881 - We aren't sure yet if this is our family because Joseph is not listed and the girl listed as Bertha Ann we always that was just Ann.  We could never find her birth certificate looking under Ann so we are thinking this might be them.    We always heard Joseph might have lived in Irealnd, but we don't know for sure.
*William Henry Street, Bootle.
*William Sutton Thomas
*Catherine Thomas
*Bertha Ann Thomas
*George Henry

4.  1882 - Catherine's brother - Patrick gets married.  He lists his address as 8 Chauncer Street and his dad as George Coughlin, deceased, a Groom.  He ends up  living until his death at Balliol Terrace, Bootle.

5.  1891 - in the Census, the older Catherine Caughlin (Coughlin) shows up first time.  The illegitimate son Joseph is back.  This is the only record I have on the older Catherine since all the certificates only ask for the father's name.    I have no records of her husband - who should be George - besides his name on the two marriage certificates.   I have no other information on these two at all.  Nothing.   I don't know why the daughter Catherine Coughlin is listed as a Coughlin when she is really a Thomas at that point and not listed as a widow.   All the children are listed as Thomas, even though Joseph was technically a Coughlin.

6.  From about 1900,  Catherine Coughlin Thomas, widow, and her daughter (Bertha ?) Ann Thomas Bostock-(married name) move to Liverpool and live at 33 Darween Street.   Catherine Coughlin Thomas dies at that address in 1917.


5. 

[bullydogs22]

We have been working on this branch of our family tree for years.  It has been so difficult because the person we were starting the research with - Joseph Coughlin - kept changing the name of his parents on all the documents we found in the U.S.   We were like what in the world.   Each new document, would be a new set of names.   He kept saying he was born in Ireland   It took years until we found out he was actually illegitimate and born in England.   The family never knew.

My family seems to all be low-skilled laborers and a lot of them sign things with an X.   That means the last name Coughlin is spelled differently at times depending on how the person actually writing the document spells it.

Also, people can be called names and use that name on documents, but it isn't their actual real name   For example, everything I have on Ann (Thomas) Bostock is Ann.  Now it might be her real name on her birth certificate will be Bertha Ann Thomas.   Out of all the records on her, this is the first time Bertha has ever come up.

This branch of the family tree is almost impossible.

[josey]

1881 ref
RG11; Piece: 3690; Folio: 124; Page: 41;
William Sutton Thomas   25 b Shoreham Sussec
Catherine Thomas   24 b Ireland [much younger than the Preston 1892 death]
Bertha Thomas   2
George Henry Thomas 8 months
both children born Bootle   

Could one of these be that George?
THOMAS, GEORGE  HENRY     HIGGINS 
GRO Reference: 1880  J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK  Volume 08B  Page 451
THOMAS, GEORGE  HENRY     CAUGHLAN     
GRO Reference: 1880  D Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK  Volume 08B  Page 452

Nothing for a Bertha Thomas 1879 +- 2 yrs.....

ADDED
You may have this but
Marriages Sep 1878   
COUGHLIN    Catherine        Liverpool    8b   162    
JONES    James        Liverpool    8b   162    
SYLCOCK    Margaret        Liverpool    8b   162    
THOMAS    William        Liverpool    8b   162

This certificate will give [this] Catherine's father's name - unless she is as variable as Joseph!!    

[bullydogs22]

1881 ref
RG11; Piece: 3690; Folio: 124; Page: 41;
William Sutton Thomas   25 b Shoreham Sussec
Catherine Thomas   24 b Ireland [much younger than the Preston 1892 death]
Bertha Thomas   2
George Henry Thomas 8 months
both children born Bootle

Yes, I believe this is my family and is the daughter of the older Catherine Coughlin I asked for the death certificate information on.   

On Ancestory.com they have baptismal information and list the birthday of the Bertha Ann Thomas as March 2, 1879, in Bootle.   On all the census records besides this one and on her marriage certificate to a John Bostock, she used the name Ann.   This is the only time we have seen Bertha.   We had tried to get her birth certificate under the name Ann and weren't successful.   We now believe it is because it will be under Bertha.

Could one of these be that George?
THOMAS, GEORGE  HENRY     HIGGINS 
GRO Reference: 1880  J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK  Volume 08B  Page 451
THOMAS, GEORGE  HENRY     CAUGHLAN     
GRO Reference: 1880  D Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK  Volume 08B  Page 452

We are going to check.   George Henry is a new discovery for us.   He is not listed on any later census records that we had.

Nothing for a Bertha Thomas 1879 +- 2 yrs.....

ADDED
Marriages Sep 1878   
COUGHLIN    Catherine        Liverpool    8b   162    
JONES    James        Liverpool    8b   162    
SYLCOCK    Margaret        Liverpool    8b   162    
THOMAS    William        Liverpool    8b   162

This certificate will give [this] Catherine's father's name - unless she is as variable as Joseph!!   

Yes, I believe the last one to William Thomas is the certificate we have and lists her father as George.   We have no information on George besides his name on two wedding certificates.   No information on the older Catherine Caughlin besides her one appearance in the 1891 census

[josey]

Have you looked on any Irish sites [rootsireland.ie or https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/] for the birth of the younger Catherine ca 1856 - just after civil registration started?

Sadly the informant on the 1892 death certificate won't help as it will be the coroner as an inquest was held. Sometimes it is a daughter or son which is helpful.

When did Joseph go to the USA?

ADDED: Perhaps the older Catherine lived in Ireland before the England 1891 census ? and Joseph lived with her ? Sadly only 1901 & 1911 Ireland censuses survive.