Author Topic: Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records  (Read 3771 times)

Offline SueBen31

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Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records
« on: Friday 21 July 17 11:59 BST (UK) »
I have spent over a year using all available methods to try and shatter a brick wall. I hope someone can help...

Richard Whiteside my 3 x maternal great grandfather is in the 1841 census living at Samlesbury Hall in Lancashire working as a Cotton Carder. His Church of England baptism record of 1818 in Cockerham, Lancashire shows him being born in Dublin, Ireland on 25.6.1815. All later censuses show him being born in Dublin, Ireland except one which says Born At Sea. There are no records to check for being born at sea in 1815.

If he was born at sea, and I can find no record of Richard's birth in any Internet record in Dublin, then Dublin would be the birth place of his father: John Whiteside. The only date of birth I have for John is approximately 1777 as he is stated to be 64 in the 1841 Census, living with his second wife, mother of Richard, Betty Rimmer. John is a shoe maker.

This birth date for John could be five years out either side, as we know the 1841 census rounded both up and down. His birth place is given as Out of County. I cannot find him in any Irish database or in subsequent English censuses so he must have died before 1851.

But I have found a John Whiteside marrying a first wife in 1798 in Poulton le Fylde, Lancashire, Jane Salthouse, but canot be sure this is the right John Whiteside as there are literally hundreds of them in that area of the country. There are no details of John's parents on this parish record.

I want to spend several weeks in Ireland this summer trying to locate my Irish Roots, if they indeed exist, and wonder if anyone can help me hone in my search as I cannot possibly visit all the  parish churches of every denomination in Dublin!!!!

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records
« Reply #1 on: Friday 21 July 17 12:21 BST (UK) »
This birth date for John could be five years out either side, as we know the 1841 census rounded both up and down. His birth place is given as Out of County. I cannot find him in any Irish database or in subsequent English censuses so he must have died before 1851.

Not so! ;D
The instructions to the enumerators were to round down all adult ages (i.e. those 15 and older) to a multiple of 5 years.
However not all the enumerators followed this rule, and some put the actual age.
If John's age is stated to be 64, then his birth year should be 1776/7, depending on when his birthday was.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Dundee

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Re: Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records
« Reply #2 on: Friday 21 July 17 12:41 BST (UK) »

If he was born at sea, and I can find no record of Richard's birth in any Internet record in Dublin, then Dublin would be the birth place of his father: John Whiteside.

If  Richard was baptised in Lancashire then I wouldn't expect to also find a record of baptism in Ireland.  It did happen but was not common.

Why would his father be born in Ireland?  The 1841 census indicates that John was not born in Lancashire but he does not have an 'I' beside his name.  Betty is recorded as being born in Lancashire.

Where were John and Betty married?  Is it from the marriage that you know he was a widower?

Debra  :)

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records
« Reply #3 on: Friday 21 July 17 13:49 BST (UK) »
I'm honestly not sure exactly where to start here  :-\

Richard Whiteside my 3 x maternal great grandfather is in the 1841 census living at Samlesbury Hall in Lancashire working as a Cotton Carder. His Church of England baptism record of 1818 in Cockerham, Lancashire shows him being born in Dublin, Ireland on 25.6.1815. All later censuses show him being born in Dublin, Ireland except one which says Born At Sea. There are no records to check for being born at sea in 1815.
Civil registration of births started in 1864 and records weren't kept of people travelling between Ireland and England. So, can't see that you will be able to find a 'birth' record.

If he was born at sea, and I can find no record of Richard's birth in any Internet record in Dublin, then Dublin would be the birth place of his father: John Whiteside. The only date of birth I have for John is approximately 1777 as he is stated to be 64 in the 1841 Census, living with his second wife, mother of Richard, Betty Rimmer. John is a shoe maker.
As above, you will not find a birth registration for Richard if he was born in Ireland or 'at sea.' Why do you think this means that his father was born in Dublin? father could have been born absolutely anywhere!

This birth date for John could be five years out either side, as we know the 1841 census rounded both up and down. His birth place is given as Out of County. I cannot find him in any Irish database or in subsequent English censuses so he must have died before 1851.
What 'Irish database' would you expect to find John in? Many church records, especially COI, don't go back that far, not all records are online, etc.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records
« Reply #4 on: Friday 21 July 17 15:25 BST (UK) »
1851 census. Richard, wife Ellen + children Mary, John, David & Eliza were in Barton-on-Irwell. Richard's parents not with them.
1861 census. Richard, Ellen + children John, David & Eliza were living in Harwood, Bolton. Listed in the household was Betty Whiteside "visitor". Her age was stated as 71, giving an estimated birth year 1790. Her place of birth was Devonshire. I can't make out the town. It looks like "_mouth". Could this Betty be Richard's mother, the Elizabeth on 1841 census? There's discrepancy in ages. If she wasn't his mother, who else could she have been? Aunt? POBs of John & Elizabeth Whiteside on 1841 census might have been recorded/transcribed incorrectly. They were among hundreds at Salmesbury Mills in 1841.

How do you know Elizabeth's surname was Rimmer and that she was John's 2nd wife?
Marriages to consider: 1808 to Betty Rimmer; 1808 to Elizabeth Livesey at Preston; 1813 to Elizabeth Collins at Plymouth, Devon. (Family Search) There may be others.
Have you tried following the John Whiteside & Jane Salthouse marriage through baptisms of possible children and Jane's burial on Lancashire OPC? Were they not around for 1841 census?
Cowban

Online heywood

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Re: Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records
« Reply #5 on: Friday 21 July 17 15:40 BST (UK) »
Hello,
Much of what has been written, I agree with.
There is a burial for John Whiteside in January 1842 of Salmesbury Mill. (It is Mill not Hall).
I have been looking for Betty in 1851 with no success but wonder if the place of birth in 1861 should be Plymouth. I read it as 'Plynsworth'  :-\

I wonder if John could have been attached to the army or similar which might account for Richard's birth in Ireland.

Heywood
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Online jim1

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Re: Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records
« Reply #6 on: Friday 21 July 17 16:13 BST (UK) »
I notice there's another child Baptised at the same time, Agnes but not listed as born Ireland so the Army theory might be correct. Many wives travelled with their husbands on home postings.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records
« Reply #7 on: Friday 21 July 17 17:27 BST (UK) »
I agree with Heywood and Jim. One of the Lancashire Militia regiments returned from Ireland in 1815 and disbanded in Lancashire. Militia regiments were similar to the Territorial Army of recent times. They were formed primarily for home defence but could be sent overseas if needed. This being the time of the long wars with Revolutionary and Napoleonic France, they got around a fair bit. There was 1 attempted and 1 successful French  invasion of Ireland in the 1790s. Rebellions in Ireland 1798 + an attempted one 1803. Ireland was under Martial Law from early 1790s until I forget when, so plenty of military needed to keep order. A recent RootsChat enquiry concerned a soldier's family in Ireland in the early years of 19thC. Militias conscripted men locally by a form of ballot. If not militia or army, John Whiteside may have joined Navy.
If he was simply an Irish shoemaker who decided to go to England he would , I assume have landed at Liverpool. Why, then, did he not remain in Liverpool and find work there, rather than head north to a less-populated region of the county? IMO he was returning to his family and his birthplace. What Settlement rules would have applied to him?  I know that soldiers returning to Ireland at this era were given "Vagrant Passes" allowing them to make their way through to Liverpool to board a boat home. However, if John returned with his regiment he wouldn't have needed a pass.

I looked for Elizabeth in 1851 too. There was one in Manchester. Head of household was John Whiteside, shoemaker, b. 1801. All family were born in Ireland.

Burial of an Agnes Whiteside, aged 1, daughter of a John & Elizabeth, 1819 Preston. There were scores of Whitesides in Preston and hundreds in Lancashire. I had a quick look for a marriage of Agnes, in the hope that mother Elizabeth may have been with her in 1851, but didn't find one that looked likely.

Were these children of Richard & Ellen baptised in Barton-on-Irwell? David Wilfred, John, James and William? Ellen's maiden name was Leigh on baptism records. They were all R.C. baptisms. David (born 1845) & John (b.1843) baptised same day in 1846. James and William baptised same day 1848. Birthdates of both  recorded as 1841. Godparents McKenna, McClusky and McAlister.

Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Tracing Irish ancestors beyond available records
« Reply #8 on: Friday 21 July 17 19:32 BST (UK) »
Royal Lancashire Militia. Numbers and names of regiments changed over time. The following existed at the time of the wars against Revolutionary France and Napoleon:
Royal Lancashire (1st Regiment) Militia
1st and 2nd Supplementary Militia Regiments. These later became 2nd and 3rd Royal Lancashire Militia Regiments. The Third was retitled The 3rd Royal Lancashire Militia (The Prince Regent's Own) in 1813.
3rd and 4th Supplementary Militia Regiments became 4th and 5th Royal Lancashire Militia Regiments. These last 2 disbanded in 1799 and their men were absorbed in other units.
1st Royal Lancs recruited in Fylde and Lancaster areas. 3rd Royal Lancs in Garstang and Preston areas and Leyland Hundred. (I've only listed recruiting areas within easy reach of Cockerham, where we know John Whiteside was post-war.) Throughout the Napoleonic Wars the Militia provided drafts of officers and men for the Regular Army.
A Supplementary Militia ("The New Militia") was raised during the Napoleonic Wars and disbanded 1816. I'm not sure if this was the same as 1st, 2nd, 3d and 4th Supplementary Regts. mentioned above.
There were also Local Militias and Volunteer Forces. These remained in the county and were for local protection.
3rd Royal Regt was embodied 1798-1802 and again 1803-1816. It served mainly in England. It was in Dublin from 1813 and remained there after peace with France was declared May 1814.After Napoleon's escape from Elba and return to France, so many officers and men volunteered for the Regular Army that the Regt was reduced to less than half-strength. Many of the Lancashire volunteers fought at Waterloo.
I believe, from earlier research, that the 1st Regiment was also stationed in Ireland around 1815.

See:
Handlist 72 Sources for the history of the Militia and volunteer regiments in Lancashire  (Lancashire Record Office) This is not an exhaustive list.
Lancashire Infantry Museum- The Duke of Lancaster's Regiment www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/the-royal-lancashire-militia
Soldiers, Sailors and Strangers- Baptisms 1800 onwards (web page) From baptisms on this it seems that 1st and 2nd Regiments , Lancashire Militia were in Northumberland around 1799/1800. Some soldiers brought wives from their home county, some married native girls, some had met their wives elsewhere in Britain. All good for the gene-pool!  E.g. Son of William Gardiner, a native of "Cockron", which I guess was Cockerham, serving in Lancashire Militia, and wife from Cumberland, was baptised, aged 2 or 3 at South Shields.



Cowban