WW2 Service Records

[originQuest]

Hi there,

I've just received a family members service records from the MOD.  I knew from a pension document in the family that he was in 7th Batt, Seaforth Highlanders ... and that this battalion liberated the south of the Netherlands.  However, it get's a little complicated ... the service records for my relative shows:

HOME: 17-10-39 - 1-11-39
BEF: 2-11-39 - 20-6-40
HOME: 21-6-40 - 9-5-45

Why wasn't he with his regiment in Holland?

Also, the records I received two days ago from the MOD are a little more confusing.  This relative enlisted in North Yorkshire on 17th October 1939 (but another sheet mentioned Blackpool ... can anyone explain why?).  He was enlisted initally in the Royal Engineers.

Although the information I received is not always chronological it seems he was posted abroad with the Royal Engineers on 2nd November 1939, but then was transferred to the AMPC on 1st December 1939. 

The sheet is NOT CLEAR after here - but he seems to have changed regiment again?  29 Coy is mentioned but no idea what that is?

17th March 1940, he was given 10 days leave in England... and he rejoins his unit on 29th March.

Then: 21st June 1940: Ex BEF To Le Centre Attach ?? (difficult to make out)

Then no date given but:

Transferred to Seaforth Hghs + posted ITC (why the transfer and what is the ITC?)

He is then posted twice in 1941 (in the UK), and nothing is recorded for 1942 - why is that?

I'll leave it there for now haha.  Any input on clarifying any of this would be most appreciated.  As usual with genealogy, it is a little complex, isn't it?!

[MaxD]

Always best to post bits of the original as it is often necessary to cross check different pages.  For example, 7th Bn Seaforths didn't deploy to Europe until 1944 so one would want to look at the entries that relate to the Home, then BEF then Home pages to make sense of it.  On the face of it, his service in 7th Seaforths must have been in UK and it seems he went abroad with the RE in 39 changing to the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps (the forerunner of the Pioneer Corps) - a not unusual move for a RE soldier.  The date of returning to UK in late June 40 looks like he may have been among the AMPC units evacuated from ports in the west of France soon after Dunkirk (they did have a 29 Company but then so did the REs (quick search finds 3) and all sorts of other regiments.

Le Centre probably Leave Centre,
ITC - Infantry training centre
Why no entry in 1942, because nothing happened to him that year no posting, no promotion, no crime, nothing to record.
Why wasn't he with his battalion (presumably you mean 7th Seaforths) - need to look at what unit he was with 1944 onwards, he was in UK anyway from what you have posted.


This is akin to picking up individual pieces of a jigsaw.  The record won't make sense until one can see the elements together.  Others may be able to do a similar job of looking at bits of what you have posted and making educated guesses as to how it all hangs together.  Far better nay essential to post the documents.

maxD

[originQuest]

Max, thank you so much for this.  You've given me a lot to think about already; wow, I had no idea.

I'd rather keep this individual's name annonymous, but very eager to learn more about him and his military career.

I've edited down one of the sheets here to the main details, and very eager to learn more.

Thank you again Max.  It is obviously so imporant to learn this history!

[Rena]

Those of us who lived through the war know that our east coast was defended by all manner of obstacles on shore and Sea Forts in the ocean.

Blackpool was where the London civil servants were moved to, plus there was plenty of RAF activity and DeHavilland Aircraft.

You mentioned the Royal Engineers, have a look for bomb disposal units.

[originQuest]

Continued page from previous upload.

[originQuest]

Thank you Rena - I will see what I can find out from the records first and then branch out, as it is a lot of information to take in initially. 

[originQuest]

Next page:

[MaxD]

OK best to take this in stages and in outline first, we can come back to detail (where it is possible) later (not least to ensure we get the shopping done!).

You have the dates of where he served and when. In UK first, the British Expeditionary Force (in France) Nov 39 until Jun 40 then UK for the remainder of his service.

Joins the Royal Engineers at 7 Works Labour Company, rank Sapper, 17 Oct 39.

Posted to France 1 Nov 39

Transferred from there 1 Dec 39 to the recently formed Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps specifically to No 29 Company

Granted 10 days UK leave in March 40

Returned to UK 21 June 40 some of the last of the BEF evacuated from France (the main evacuation at Dunkirk finished on 4/5 June).

Went to a Leave centre and transferred from the AMPC to the Seaforth Highlanders but went first for training to one of the Infantry Training Centres.

It seems as if he was posted to another ITC in April 41, perfectly possible to be one of the permanent staff of the centre either in a support or training capacity.

Is promoted to L Cpl some time before Feb 43, date not on these docs.

Feb 43 he goes absent without leave for nearly 3 days and is admonished (slap on wrist and lost 3 days pay)

Goes absent again May 43 for almost 24 hours.

There is then a string of absences up till May 44 when he is court martialled for absence and for wounding someone.  Sentenced to 1 year at hard labour in Jun 44.  The hard labour element was later commuted so just 1 year detention.  Also loses pay again for the absence.

Having served 129 days, his sentence is suspended in Oct 44 and he is released, goes AWOL again in Feb 45 for over 4 days, gets 7 days confined to barracks.

Discharged May 45, the bit of his sentence he didn’t serve was remitted on discharge.


You might like to digest all of that first but at least it tells you why he wasn't in Holland!

maxD

[originQuest]

Thank you for this Max - your filling in of the company details has been fascinating, and I couldn't do that myself.

I'm really eager to see where he was in France during the BEF evacuation.

Also, this relative's uncle was also in Seaforth Highlanders in WW1, dying in November 1914 in France - I wondered if that might be the reason why this relative was also in this regiment?  Some family connection perhaps, or mere coincidence?

Thank you for clarifying the details about the court martial and that the sentence of hard labour was reduced etc.  Obviously, I'm very interested in hearing more about the circumstances of the assult, and wonder if this relative was photographed on his entry to prison, which seems to be Chatham. 
This relative was known as a violent drunk in the family, so few photos of him have survived.  The stories of him going AWOL are also present in the family, on one occasion he returned home drunk with his gun and shot a hole in the ceiling.

Thank you Max, this breakdown is very helpful.  I wonder though, why this relative didn't join his regiment in Holland, after his release?  Also, he very clearly writes his regiment as being the 7th Batt, Seaforth Highlanders on his pension document.

Thank you again for this - the 30 quid for these documents has been worth it.