Author Topic: Missing link in Cambusnethan  (Read 940 times)

Offline parkerlodger

  • RootsChat Pioneer
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Missing link in Cambusnethan
« on: Tuesday 25 July 17 18:05 BST (UK) »
Hi there,
I've been lurking on these boards, and enjoying my own problematic research for some time.  I think it's time to ask for help though, as I'm going in circles.

I am researching Thomas Lindsay, and am looking for information on his father (the inconveniently named Thomas Lindsay)

The Thomas Lindsay I am interested in was born in Shotts,1855, to Margaret Young Hill.
Thomas grew up in Cambusnethan with his mother and grandmother (Agnes Clelland), married in Rhu (Helen Kyle) and settled in Glasgow.
I have him in every census from 1861-1911.

I am eager to confirm and research his father.
Unfortunately, I can't find his birth certificate to confirm who this might be.  His birth year may be part of the problem (?)
I can't find a marriage certificate for his parents either.  I assume they married, because my Thomas has his name.
I have his own marriage certificate listing his father as Thomas Lindsay, Joiner, Deceased.
Thomas Sr. seems to have died between 1855 and 1861, because Margaret is unmarried in the 1861 census (she marries Robert Nicol in 1865).
I can't find a death certificate for Thomas Jr either, but I know it would have been in Glasgow, no earlier than the 1920s as I have photos of him living with my Granny.

Thomas was much more successful than Margaret's later children, which makes me even more curious about the Lindsay side. 
  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  I've tried many ways of searching (on SP,FindMyPast etc) but I'm sure there are other things I should have tried. 
Time to ask the experts!

Online CaroleW

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 71,209
  • Barney 1993-2004
    • View Profile
Re: Missing link in Cambusnethan
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 25 July 17 18:48 BST (UK) »
Hi and welcome to Rootschat

When you say Margaret is unmarried in 1861 do you mean she was single rather than widowed ?

When she married Robert Nicol - what was her marital status. - widow or spinster?

If spinster then it's easy - she and Lindsay never married.

Have you looked for a birth for Thomas jnr under Hill? 
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)

Offline RJ_Paton

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,489
  • Cuimhnichibh air na daoine bho'n d'thainig sibh
    • View Profile
Re: Missing link in Cambusnethan
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 25 July 17 18:57 BST (UK) »
Hi there,
I've been lurking on these boards, and enjoying my own problematic research for some time.  I think it's time to ask for help though, as I'm going in circles.

Welcome to Rootschat


Unfortunately, I can't find his birth certificate to confirm who this might be.  His birth year may be part of the problem (?)

If born in 1855 this was the "golden year" for research as the Registrar recorded much more information than in later years - the problem might be that he was born in 1854 - which makes you more reliant on Church Records. A search of SP for Thomas Hill or Thomas Lindsay born 1850- 1859 in Lanarkshire gives nothing to follow up which makes me suspect that his actual birth was in 1854 and that either he was not christened/baptised or there simply is no surviving record - not that unusual.

I can't find a marriage certificate for his parents either.  I assume they married, because my Thomas has his name.

Although he uses the name in later life - he may not have had that name at birth. The other fly in the ointment is that his mother is described as "unmarried" rather than widowed in the 1861 census. What does her later marriage say for her - if Spinster this would appear to support the supposition that she was never married to Thomas's father. This would also widen the search criteria for Thomas Snr's death.

I have his own marriage certificate listing his father as Thomas Lindsay,

Although possibly true this may have been information given to him or it may be a complete fabrication. Many who were born illegitimate with no knowledge of a father often made one up for marriage records - for appearances sake - and as a teacher he did have a certain social position to maintain.

I see that his birthplace appears to change - 1861 Cambusnethan, 1871 Shotts what do the later census records show ?

Offline anne_p

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,134
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing link in Cambusnethan
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 26 July 17 11:25 BST (UK) »
On census returns of 1851, Margaret Hill is aged 12
1861 census is consistent, showing age 22yrs.

Therefore, if her son was born in 1855, Margaret was somewhere around 16yrs of age at the time of his birth and unlilkely to have been married to the child's father.

" I assume they married, because my Thomas has his name"

Is there any evidence to show that Margaret's own mother, Agnes Clelland was ever married to a Mr Hill, yet Margaret had this name??

EG:
My g grandfather remarried a widow.
Her 1st marriage, 2nd marriage and death record all show a father with the same last name but, he has a different first name and  vastly differing occupations on all 3  documents.
She also made a PR claim during her 2nd marriage and although her father's 1st name matches to one of the above but,... his occupation differs again!

I eventually located her own birth cert.
She was illegitimate and was recorded with her mother's last name with no father listed
She had a middle name.
She preferred to use this as her surname, which reflected the elusive ( possibly non existent) father.

From all 4 documents, it becomes apparent that this woman did not know who her father actually was, but she seemed certain that her given middle name, was his last name?


Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,070
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Missing link in Cambusnethan
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 26 July 17 11:42 BST (UK) »
I can't find a marriage certificate for his parents either.  I assume they married, because my Thomas has his name.
Not a safe assumption :(

Quote
Thomas Sr. seems to have died between 1855 and 1861, because Margaret is unmarried in the 1861 census
If she had been married to Thomas Lindsay and he had died, she would normally be listed as widowed, not unmarried.

Quote
I have his own marriage certificate listing his father as Thomas Lindsay, Joiner, Deceased.
How, exactly, is his mother's name recorded on his marriage certificate?

I see from the index at SP that Thomas Lindsay and Helen Kyle were married in 1880. Which rather scuppers my idea of looking for a Thomas Lindsay who was a carpenter or joiner or wright in the 1881 census :(

On the other hand, Thomas Jr could have bent the truth a little when he got married, or perhaps his mother had told him that his father was dead when in fact he wasn't .... there is a Thomas Lindsay, joiner, aged 50, born Barony, with wife Catherine and assorted children. They look like the family of Thomas Lindsay and Catherine Brown, who were married in Glasgow in 1856. Their eldest son was Andrew, and there is a family in Shettleston in 1851 with head Andrew Lindsay and son Thomas, 22, joiner journeyman, born Barony. Note that this is pure speculation on my part and not to be interpreted as definite confirmation that this particular Thomas Lindsay is the errant father of your Thomas Lindsay.

I see, incidentally, that in 1881 Thomas Jr gives his age as 27. If accurate this means a birth in 1853 or 1854 rather than in 1855. You would expect a schoolmaster to be able to get his own age correct!

Des Garrity's 1861 census index lists Agnes Clelland, 53; Margaret Hill, 22; Thomas Lindsay, 6; and Ann Clelland, 63, all born Cambusnethan except Ann who was born in Bothwell. If accurate, that gives a birth between April 1854 and March 1855 for Thomas; it also means that Margaret was very young indeed to be the mother of Thomas.

The 1851 census transcription at https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl lists
Agnes Cleland, head, 43, unmarried, sewster, born Cambusnethan
Robert Cleland, brother, 44, unmarried, shoemaker, born Cambusnethan
Margaret Hill, 12, born Cambusnethan
plus a niece, nephew and great-nephew.
If Margaret's middle name was Young, this points to Agnes being the daughter of Thomas Clelland and Margaret Young, baptised in Cambusnethan on 15 April 1808.

The only source that might reveal anything more about Thomas Lindsay Sr is the minutes of either the Cambusnethan or the Shotts Kirk Session. If Margaret Young Hill was a member of the congregation and unmarried, and her pregnancy came to the notice of the Kirk Session, there could be a record of her being summoned to answer for her sin, and that would normally include information about her partner.

The Kirk Session minutes are in the National Records of Scotland. They have been digitised, but are not (yet) available online, so until they do come online (which has been 'soon' for some time!) they can only be consulted in the Historical Search Room in General Register House in Edinburgh (not in the Scotland's People Centre there) or in a small number of archives elsewhere including Glasgow, Hawick, Aberdeen and Inverness. So unless you can go to one of those in person, or get someone to go on your behalf (quite a big 'ask' for a volunteer as it could involve scrolling through a large number of pages of digital images of dodgy handwriting) you will need to wait until they do become available online.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.