Mary FITZGIBBONS b Ireland, ch (JOHN) GEORGE & ALICE + KING & WEBSTER

[searchr]

Would anyone please have clues on how to trace Mary FITZGIBBONS further back to Ireland?
She was a widow, a hawker in St Giles in 1871, b Ireland, with children George, 4 & Alice, 2.
From their b certs, George was b Apr 1866 & Alice in Dec 1867 in Vinegar Yard Workhouse, with just their mother listed, as Mary FITZGIBBONS.
These children later married Annie KING in 1892 & James WEBSTER in 1885, with both having their father listed in the m certs as George FITZGIBBONS, coachman in the 1885 cert & carman in the 1892 one. Neither have him noted as deceased.
Their d certs don't help either as they don't give parents.
There was another Mary (sometimes Ann) Fitzgibbons née Tobin having children in St. Giles at this time also, with a Michael & then a Thomas Fitzgibbons, but this does not seem to be my Mary. as she, Thomas & children Mary, John, Ellen & Bridget are also on the 1871 census, in London. They are also both on the 1881. My Mary in 1881 seems to still be a widow, but to no longer have George with her & to have other children with her: Ellen b abt 1864, so presumably back with her, Harriet b abt 1872 & Mary b abt 1876. I got discouraged before as I tried 2 other St. Giles b certs, a female b 1864 who turned out to be the daughter of Michael Fitzgibbons & Mary née Tobin; & Harriet b 1871 who was the daughter of Thomas Fitzgibbons & Mary née Tobin. I guess I should try others e.g. the Mary Ann Fitzgibbons b 1875 St. Giles. There's one b 1873 too.
I don't know part of Ireland to look in, or even whether FITZGIBBONS was her maiden name or married name. I can't find her past 1871, for sure, or maybe 1881. I suspect she lived somewhere within walking distance of Waterloo station, due to a diary of her grandson, but that just says Gran & that could be his other Gran.
Does anyone have any clues? Should I post this in the Ireland section? Do I give up? Is there a place to find out more about carmen/ coachmen?
Thanks, hopefully.

[KGarrad]

Civil Registration in Ireland began in 1864 - with non-Catholic marriages recorded from 1845.

So, you will be reliant on Church Records.
First question is what religious denomination was Mary?
Some Church records are available on www.irishgenealogy.ie website.
Catholic registers are available on registers.nli.ie - but there is no index; you need to know which parish to look at.

Secondly, the new GRO Index Search shows mother's maiden names for almost all births registered from 1837.

If this is George's and Alice's birth, then the absence of a Mother's Maiden Name usually indicates an illegitimate birth?
FITZGIBBONS, GEORGE        -      
GRO Reference: 1866  J Quarter in ST GILES  Volume 01B  Page 470

FITZGIBBONS, ALICE        -      
GRO Reference: 1867  D Quarter in ST GILES  Volume 01B  Page 501

[heywood]

Hello,

I am a bit confused. You mention 'my Mary' in 1881 and then write that you don't have her past 1871. Have I misunderstood.

This is 1881 327/61/7
61 Dudley Street St Giles

Mary Fitzgibbins   36 yrs
Ellen Fitzgibbins   17 yrs
Alice Fitzgibbins   14 yrs
Harriet Fitzgibbins 9 yrs
Mary Fitzgibbins 5 yrs

1871 Mary is living in Dudley Street

Do you think this is your Mary?

Heywood

[KGarrad]

Hello,

I am a bit confused. You mention 'my Mary' in 1881 and then write that you don't have her past 1871. Have I misunderstood.

I think OP means before 1871? (that's how I read it! )

[heywood]

Hello,

I am a bit confused. You mention 'my Mary' in 1881 and then write that you don't have her past 1871. Have I misunderstood.

I think OP means before 1871? (that's how I read it! )

Oh thanks  I didn't read it that way at all   

My next question was going to be re Ellen - 'so presumably back with her' - where is Ellen in 1871.
Then, Harriet is mentioned but the wrong one - Tobin mmn.

[heywood]

I think that the Mary Fitzgibbon/s you have in 1871 and 1881 with husband, Thomas is Mary Morrissey (with variations).
There is a marriage 1865 - Thomas Fitzgibbon and Mary Moressey are on the same page. The birth of John shows mother as Morris and some of the younger births show as Morissy or similar.

There is an 1861 marriage where Michael Fitzgibbons and Mary Ann Tobin are on the same page.

[searchr]

Thanks so much all. I'll investigate further later as have to go to work soon, especially about the Morrissey idea. Just to try to make it a bit clearer, though, it's the other Mary (Tobin) (I think, or am I wrong?) with Thomas (and previously with Michael, from the birth cert of a female child). George & Alice have George as a father, at least that's what they say when they marry in 1885 and 1892, and it matches with George's name. The widow part is confusing, especially since she has more children in 1881.
Sorry I confused people with 1871. I can't find her after 1871 for sure, or maybe 1881. I've modified it now.
I do think that could be her in 1871 & 1881. If she was in a workhouse, she could have been somehow separated from Ellen in 1871 & from George/ John in 1881.

[heywood]

I think it was my turn to be unclear.

The Thomas and Mary you mention in 1871 and 1881 are, I think, from births, Thomas and Mary Morrissey (variations) so are not your family. If I recall children in that family are born in London City or Westminster.

You Have Mary, the 'widow' who you are assuming is Tobin from the births, is that correct?
These births are St Giles.
As has been pointed out, George and Alice have no mother's maiden name shown in the indexes and their baptisms in the workhouse describe them as illegitimate. Mary is a hawker.

There is a James Fitzgibbins 1862 with mother Tobin.
'Female' birth 1864 has mother Tobin.
Harriet in 1871 has mother Tobin.
Mary Ann b 1875 has mother Tobin.

Perhaps the 1861 for Michael Fitzgibbons and Mary Tobin may be of help to you.

[heywood]

Do you have this marriage?

Christ Church Southwark 28th February 1892

Thomas George Leader and Harriet Fitzgibbons

Father Names:   Thomas Leader and Thomas Fitzgibbons, deceased, Coachman

A witness is Alice Webster