Author Topic: Hall DAVIS and Helen McINTYRE  (Read 587 times)

Offline fionajka

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Hall DAVIS and Helen McINTYRE
« on: Sunday 30 July 17 06:12 BST (UK) »
Hi All,
This one has me a bit stumped in couple of ways...so hoping someone can help me unravel it a bit more.

I've trolled through SP, Anc, & FS to follow Hall DAVIS b c.1861, Lurgan, Co.Down, Ireland, through the 1871 / 1881 / 1891 census, but when I get to 1901 and beyond it gets a little tricky.

1901 has a Hall DAVIES with Helen and son James
Registration Number:      685/3
Registration district:      Canongate
Civil Parish:         Edinburgh Iron Church
County:            Midlothian


Whilst 1911 has Hall DAVIS with Helen, and children, Hall and Helen
Registration Number:      646/2
Registration district:      Govan
Civil Parish:         Govan
County:            Lanarkshire


This census says the couple has been married for 12 years (so together since 1900) but son Hall b. 1902, birth certificate has him listed as illegitimate. I have yet to locate their daughter, Helen b. 1907 birth to clarify if she too was illegitimate. So at this stage no marriage has been located although Hall's death certificate - 1930, has Helen McIntyre listed as his widow.

The 1911 census also says only two children had been born - so this is where I am stumped with connecting them to the previous 1891 census with child James, to see whether he is this couples child or not, or to see if it is the same couple as the 1911 census.

So I tried to follow James before and after 1901 but to no avail...and no other 1901 census for Hall by himself or with Helen if they had been together since c.1900 (whether married or not).

So can anyone help me unravel this a little more if possible?

Kindly,
Fiona

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,909
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
Re: Hall DAVIS and Helen McINTYRE
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 30 July 17 10:00 BST (UK) »
I've trolled through SP, Anc, & FS
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0

Quote
to follow Hall DAVIS b c.1861, Lurgan, Co.Down, Ireland, through the 1871 / 1881 / 1891 census, but when I get to 1901 and beyond it gets a little tricky.
Have you been using transcriptions? If so, you need to look at the originals to be sure that the transcriptions match the originals. A******y in particular is notorious for incorrect transcriptions.

Quote
Civil Parish: Edinburgh Iron Church
That will be Tron, not Iron. The Tron Kirk is on the Royal Mile at its intersection with the Bridges, so it's bang in the middle of the Old Town.

Quote
This census says the couple has been married for 12 years (so together since 1900) but son Hall b. 1902, birth certificate has him listed as illegitimate .... So at this stage no marriage has been located although Hall's death certificate - 1930, has Helen McIntyre listed as his widow.
They could just have lied for the sake of appearances.

Quote
The 1911 census also says only two children had been born - so this is where I am stumped with connecting them to the previous 1891 census with child James, to see whether he is this couples child or not, or to see if it is the same couple as the 1911 census.
You haven't told us how old they all were in these censuses, or where they were born (which is more useful information than the 'registration' numbers, both of which identify only the district and tell us nothing about the individuals). However I see that the SP index to the 1901 census says that James was aged 12, so he is probably the son of eithr Hall or Helen by a previous relationship, and he would not be listed as issue of their marriage in 1911. Where does the census say James was born?

You say that Helen jr was born in 1907. I see from the index at SP that she is listed as aged 4. Census day in 1911 was 2 April, so if Helen's age was accurate, she was born between 3 April 1906 and 2 April 1907. (Miscalculating dates of birth by subtracting age from census year is a common failing of census transcriptions.) Scotland's People lists six births of Helen/Ellen Davis/Davies in 1906/1907, but without knowing where she was born it is not possible to know which one is the right one. Where does the census say Helen jr was born?

I note with interest a marriage of a Hall Davies to Agnes Hull in Garstang, Lancashire in 1898. Though as a Hall Davies was born in Fylde, Lancashire in 1859, the 1898 marriage is probably a red herring.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline fionajka

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Hall DAVIS and Helen McINTYRE
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 02 August 17 03:27 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the reply - yes I am aware that I need to be careful about transcriptions from sources other than the original for the most part.

I was being cautious about not giving birth place details due to privacy issues, but I'm sure if they overstep the bounds then they will be removed by our moderator, so here goes..

(transcript...) 1901 Census - 4a Niddry Street, Edinburgh Tron Church, Midlothian
Household members
Name:                          Hall Davies
Age:                             38, b. cabt 1863, Ireland
Occupation:                      Riveter
   
Helen Davies         34, b. c1867, Edinburgh
James Davies         12, b. c1889, Edinburgh

(original) 1911 Census - 56 Fairfield Street, Govan, Lanarkshire
Household Members
Name:            Hall Davis
Age:                    49, b. c1862, Lurgan, Co. Down, Ireland
Occupation:          Riveter
         
Helen Davis         44, b. c1867, Edinburgh
Hall Davis                 8, b. 10 Nov 1902, Canongate, Edinburgh
Helen Davis         4, b. c1907, Edinburgh

Though you have given me something to think about in regards to James being a previous child so that's an avenue to check out, so thanks for that.

Fiona

Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,909
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
Re: Hall DAVIS and Helen McINTYRE
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 02 August 17 14:44 BST (UK) »
As far as moderators are concerned, they are only going to take exception if you give information about potentially living people (including your own e-mail address) or if you include something which is a breach of copyright.

So Helen Jr was born in Edinburgh.

I couldn't resist taking a look. There is a birth of Helen Davies McIntyre, illegitimate, at 83 Tron Square, Edinburgh, on 23 November 1906, mother Helen McIntyre, tin box maker. Do you think this is Hall's daughter? If so, then it suggests that Hall and Helen Sr were not married in 1898/9, and that they modified the truth for the 1911 census. They were not alone if they did so.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline fionajka

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Hall DAVIS and Helen McINTYRE
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 02 August 17 22:32 BST (UK) »
hmmm - no father listed on that one....interesting - and she is named MacINTYRE whereas son Hall was named DAVIS in 1902. I think the marriage of 12 years on the 1911 census was definitely a furfy :)

Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,909
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
Re: Hall DAVIS and Helen McINTYRE
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 02 August 17 22:57 BST (UK) »
hmmm - no father listed on that one....interesting - and she is named MacINTYRE whereas son Hall was named DAVIS in 1902.
The birth certificate of an illegitimate child can only have the father's name on it if the father accompanies the mother when she goes to register the birth, and signs the birth certificate along with her.

Sometimes there is an entry in the RCE (Register of Corrected Entries) if there has been a court case to determine paternity. As Hall and Helen were living together in 1911, this would probably not have been necessary in the case of Helen Jr.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith