WW 1 Royal Field Artillery regiment identification

[Horn8397]

Hi,
I have an ancestor who was a corporal and then sergeant in the Royal Field Artillery regiment No 599 and he then either moved regiments or the number was changed to 965088.  He entered France on 16th March 1915.  I cannot find any history of such a regiment(s) and would like to know which battalion, brigade or division they were attached to.  In 1917 he was in Italy for a few months

Many thanks

K

[MaxD]

Those are not numbers of regiments, they are his service numbers.  Need a bit more time to ferret around for more information, I have his medal card and roll entry OK.

maxD

[medpat]

Have found info from just numbers. I have send you 1 PM but needed to send another - your box is full please start emptying it so I can give you more details.

Have found the man's medal roll. Have found the 2 regiments he was in but no attestation papers so am assuming they are part of those lost in WW2.

 

[MaxD]

The reason for two numbers is that in 1917, the Territorial Force was renumbered.  The unit he was serving with when he renumbered was 303 (sometimes written CCCIII) Brigade Royal Field Artillery which was originally called 2/8th (Howitzer) London Brigade.  Was he from London by chance??

It is not totally clear at the moment whether he was serving with the same regiment when he went to France, need a bit more ferreting around!

More to come I hope!

maxD

Medpat - I'd be interested in the two regiments? Added - he was in another unit when he went to France.

[medpat]

Hello maxD - here's part of what I found.

Royal Artillery (Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery) Regimental Number:   965088
Sub Unit:   Royal Field Artillery. Territorial Force Sgt

Previous Units:   RFA.T. 599, Sgt.

Information from the original document which was dated 19 Oct 1920 - Place Charlton SE 7

The document is the Roll of Individuals entitled to the Victory and British Medal.

It explains the 2 service numbers as it seems the first unit may have morphed into  the second unit as all the named servicemen appear to have been in both and given 2 service numbers.

 

[MaxD]

The medal roll, which is the document you are referring to, is showing the change of numbers in early 1917 for men of the Royal Field Artillery Territorial Force.  RFA T is simply another way of writing Royal Field Artillery Territorial Force, there was no morphing of one to the other.  (The inclusion of "Horse" there is simply because the same record ofice dealt with both Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery).   The roll is not showing the units to which he belonged within the RFA, that is where the research comes in.

 The new numbers can be traced to the unit they were issued to, and in his case we can say that at that time he was in 303 Field Brigade.
We can't say he was in that brigade when he went to France in 1915, not least because that brigade didn't go to France until June 1916 so the next thing is to find out who he was with then.

303 was a London brigade (hence my query) and was, in 1916, in France with the 60th (2/2 London) Division. That division was the reserve division for the 47th (1st/2nd London) Division who went to France in March 1915 (same as our man).

They took with them London RFA Brigades, 235 from Kennington and Paddington, 236 from Brixton, 237 from Fulham and Shepherds Bush and a brigade first called the 8th London (Howitzer) Brigade which, in May 1916, became 238 Brigade and which then in March 1917 was broken up.

As his service record is missing as you know, it is not possible to prove/disprove which brigade he went to France or when he moved from wherever to 303 Brigade where he was renumbered.

However, the war diary for the artillery of 47 Div records 8 Brigade detraining and going into their billets at Ferfay on 18 March 1915 which indicates that they arrived in France a day or so before that (he arrived 16 March).  The unit breaking up in 1917 suggests he had to find a new unit which would account for him being in 303 at the renumbering.  More research may give more solid evidence.

maxD

[medpat]

Have found this info for him

15 Star (T) RFA/11 AB on page 1434 that's the only thing I found with the date of him getting to France. Does the 11 AB after RFA give the possible unit he was attached to?

[MaxD]

What you are looking at is the number of the RFA 1914/15 Star medal roll in which, on page 1434, his 1914/15 Star is recorded.

There are two medal rolls, one, RFA 11AB has 1914/15 Stars and the other, RFA 171B page 143/05 has the Victory and British War medals.  Both are cross referenced on his medal card,  The 14/15 Star roll and the medal card both have his date of entry to France which we have.  Neither of them have the brigade(s) with which he served.  We have the one he was with when the renumbering took place.  Finding out more is a process of checking war diaries for clues, perhaps hearing from the original poster where in London his ancestor came from and generally being familiar with service records and with the organisation of the RFA and the divisions with which they fought.

I am still in the process of checking the first war diary and shall post further when I have anything.

maxD

[MaxD]

K

It might be helpful to sum up what we have so far.

George Horner’s medal records are the only records of his service that survive.  You may know that some 70% of service records were destroyed in a WW2 bombing.  His medal card, in case you don’t have it, is available to download at
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2950440
The medal rolls referred to in previous posts have the same information and I would suggest are not necessary.

Only his service record would have told us what brigades he served with.  However, we know from the renumbering that he was in 303 Brigade in mid 1917, although we don’t know when he joined them or when he left.  There are four war diaries which show that the brigade was in France first and then joined the Salonika campaign (which is where the Italy reference perhaps comes in).  The diaries are at :
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=303%20brigade&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv

Unfortunately, only the one for the period up to November 1916 has been digitised and can be downloaded.  The others require a trip to Kew or to a copying service. 

As I have hope I have explained, the period before 1917 has to be (educated) guesswork and involves trawling through a number of war diaries.  I am reluctant to advise you to download any other diaries for the moment until the earlier period becomes clearer.  I am fairly confident that he went to France with one of the brigades supporting 47 Division, where he lived in London may give us a clue.  It may be possible to find a trail that leads from one of the 47 Div brigades to 303 Brigade, I’ll let you know what I find, if anything.

Could you let us know whether any of the locations of the various brigades I posted earlier relate to where he was living pre-war?

maxD