Author Topic: OCCUPATIONS DURING 2WW FOR MEN OVER 50  (Read 2076 times)

Offline seaweed

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Re: OCCUPATIONS DURING 2WW FOR MEN OVER 50
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 10 August 17 13:55 BST (UK) »
You wrote----


The trouble with alot of these archives, you have to reply on the person at the other end
being as interested as you are.

Cheers for now and I would be interested to read your thoughts.

I think that's half the problem. They are not in the slightest bit interested in your particular case. From my experience they do not go an extra mile mealy copying the pages they think you want. That's why I always advise visiting the archives yourself or getting an experienced MN researcher to do it for you. Apart from anything else, it's cheaper to DIY!
Of course I realise it's sometimes physically impossible for some people to do this but that's what rootschat is all about. Helping each other.
Contrary to my previous post I think the POW route may be an option. I note from his pre war MN service record he was a Bar Steward and one of his regular ships was ORAMA official number 146024.
ORAMA was sunk off Narvik on 8/June/1940. Most of the crew that survived became POW at Milag. In fact ORAMA's band gave regular concerts there. IF he was on board that would explain the missing years.
It may pay you to look at this file. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10814787
I would also look at the  Crew Agreement not Crew List of  HIGHLAND PRINCESS for the voyage he sailed on her.
If you can wait until early September I will be at TNA and if you so wish, will take a look at the documents for you.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline ArnhemBobby

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Re: OCCUPATIONS DURING 2WW FOR MEN OVER 50
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 10 August 17 15:51 BST (UK) »
Good afternoon again Seaweed,
You sound as enthralled as I am! You've obviously been 'delving'.
As you know, the Mataroa on the NZ mail runs was the next ship he was on after the Orama which was on the Australia mail runs. Both back and forth from Aus/NZ to/from Victoria/Tilbury/S'Hampton.
Don't know the sailings of the Orama in February 1940 but if she had docked at Tilbury, as she had been in the habit of, then he could conceivably been seconded into her crew. After all, Tilbury is only up river from Victoria docks and I can imagine him volunteering to be put into a pool.
I see she was a troop ship and sunk by the Admiral Hipper. I agree it could be possible he was in the crew and that would account for those missing years.
I have been researching this chap on and off for the last 25 years or so and kept coming up against brick walls and dead ends. Spending hours at Kew and getting nowhere.Most frustrating.
I am seriously considering your kind offer of you taking a look in September. I am off to Arnhem for the Market Garden commemorations. But then getting myself over to Kew is not easy I must say I'm just in the wrong location geographically to get there easily.
If I may be so bold as to take you up on your generous offer, please let me know what else you will need in the way of details to help look things up without going off on 'red herrings' or wasting time. That would be wonderful.
I suspect you know your way around these MN series far far better than most. If it were 1WW army I would be in my element or even Boer War or Zulu War.
I can send you all his sailings, ships, dates, etc. no problem if that will help. How would I get them to you should you need them?
My family tree is pretty much complete regards the 'services' side of things.
It's full of heroes! I have a grand father who won a DCM with the RGA in 1900, his son was RA in the 2WW and had two MID's and Henry Blogg GC of the Cromer life boat. Oh and Stevenson from Bristol who went over Niagara Falls in a barrel but that was just stupidity not heroism!
So you see I would love to get the facts about George as he appears to have been another colourful character and no doubt would be entitled to at least 3 2WW medals.
By the way. If he was serving in the MN during that period, would he have kept his original No.609629 or would he have been issued with a wartime number?
Incidentally, I have just double checked his D o B and is 12/08/1889 NOT 1886. His Discharge books both show it as 1889 as do several other documents I have. However, his birth certificate has his birth as 12th August 1886. So as far as the MN was concerned he was 50 in February 1940. This would have just put him in the 'active service' bracket. Nes pas?
This conversation is most encouraging I must say, thankyou.
Best regards,

Offline John915

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Re: OCCUPATIONS DURING 2WW FOR MEN OVER 50
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 10 August 17 16:41 BST (UK) »
Good afternoon,

The upper age limit of 51 applied to the armed forces but not the MN. Seamen could carry on as long as they wanted to. The head cook on the SS Calabria was 79 when killed in action when the ship was torpedoed by a U-boat.

In may 41 the goverment passed the emergency work order (no 481 i think) which was to set upa list of all available seamen so that ships could be crewed as needed. Seamen were required to serve for the duration of the war and would be paid regardless of down time.

Before this seamen adrift in lifeboats were counted as being on down time. They were not paid as the owners had no need of them if their ship had been sunk.

John915

PS. Time between ships on shore was also down time.
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

Offline ArnhemBobby

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Re: OCCUPATIONS DURING 2WW FOR MEN OVER 50
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 10 August 17 16:49 BST (UK) »
Hi John,
Well, there's some information I wasn't aware of!! So this 'too old for active service' thing obviously did not apply to Merchant Seamen. Well that opens up a whole new can of worms.
He could have been in the crew of ANY of the Merchant ships during the 2WW ...... great!
We have a needle in a haystack situation building here. I was afraid of that.
Let's hope this reply from the PRO shows something definite or maybe the Orama scenario may prove to be the answer to this mystery.
Sounds like the MN got the rough end of the deal.
Thanks for the info. much obliged to you.
Best regards,


Offline ArnhemBobby

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Re: OCCUPATIONS DURING 2WW FOR MEN OVER 50
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 10 August 17 17:15 BST (UK) »
Hi again John,

I have just noticed your coat of arms ......... we have the same surname!!

Spooky or what

Offline John915

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Re: OCCUPATIONS DURING 2WW FOR MEN OVER 50
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 10 August 17 17:27 BST (UK) »
Good evening,

Hi again John,

I have just noticed your coat of arms ......... we have the same surname!!

Spooky or what

Unfortunately not, I have that as a second christian name. A sign of barstardy somewhere down the line apparently. We are supposed to be descended from John (mad jack) Fuller MP. This has never been proven given that he never married but one story says he had an illigitemate child with his housekeeper.

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

Offline ArnhemBobby

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Re: OCCUPATIONS DURING 2WW FOR MEN OVER 50
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 10 August 17 17:55 BST (UK) »
Oh well, never mind.
There was alot of that about in those days.
Cheers

Offline seaweed

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Re: OCCUPATIONS DURING 2WW FOR MEN OVER 50
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 10 August 17 20:19 BST (UK) »
I think we will draw a blank with BT382/1213. Maybe we can short circuit the POW speculation by looking at a sub series within BT382. Part 6
If he was a MN POW it would be recorded here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11001415
Other than that. It may be possible that he served under T124 articles.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11001364
It would be more expedient if you requested BT382/3240 via email or we can wait to September. It's your call.
I would be interested in looking at his Discharge books to see if I can spot any clues. I'll send my e mail address via Personal Message. As far as I am aware he would have kept his original discharge number throughout his MN career.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022