Author Topic: Olive Mary Stanley - relative of John Stanley/Ireland?  (Read 115 times)

Offline Jojo

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Olive Mary Stanley - relative of John Stanley/Ireland?
« on: Thursday 10 August 17 13:21 BST (UK) »
Hello,

I've been trying to identify John Stanley/Ireland for some time.  It is somewhat complicated because he used both Stanley and Ireland as his surname in different census returns. There are a couple of other (old) threads, one is here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=309819.0

I can find nothing on him before 1879, which is the baptism of his Olive, his first child at St John's, Walworth. He married Mary Jane Quigley in 1880. His father is listed as Zachariah Ireland (deceased) but I haven't found anything related to him. I have John Stanley's children's baptisms and later census returns.

Some internet searching turned up chat threads which mention Olive Mary Stanley married to Daniel Johnson.  Daniel and Olive are at 8 Park Row, Newington in 1881, same address as John Stanley and family (RG11 P549 F32 P58). Previously I had not made any connection between these two families.

However - I can't find a marriage record for Daniel Johnson and Olive Mary Stanley so I cannot confirm this information from the internet search.  I also cannot confirm any relationship between John Stanley and Olive Mary Stanley/Johnson, though it seems likely, particularly given he named his eldest Olive.

If anyone has any information, particularly on how we know Daniel Johnson married Olive Mary Stanley I would be very grateful.
I know that the RTFHS has Stanley histories, but I'm not sure if they would be any help to me here.

Thanks
 

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Offline AMBLY

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Re: Olive Mary Stanley - relative of John Stanley/Ireland?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 11 August 17 11:47 BST (UK) »
For our reference:
1881 Census:  at 8 Park Row, Newington
Head: Daniel JOHNSON 55, Hawker, b Broughton
Wife: Olive JOHNSON 51, Basket Maker, b Hampshire
Dau: Sarah JOHNSON 17, Paper Sorter, b Surrey Borough
Dau: Lucy JOHNSON 15,  Domestic Servant, b Walworth, Surrey

After them, at the same address, on his own schedule,
John Ireland (with his wife Mary) is shown as age 30, Paper Dealer, b Whitechapel.
This makes John  born around 1851. (Is daughter Olive the daughter named as 'Alice' in 1881?)

The JOHNSON family in 1871: at 6 Park Row, St Mary Newington
RG10 / Piece  619 / Folio 138 / Pg66
Head: Daniel JOHNSON 45, Basket Maker, b Kingston Surrey
Wife: Mary 41 , b Chelsea Mdx
Dau: Rebecca 17 , b Chelsea Mdx
Son: Peter 14 , b Chelsea Mdx
Son: Divers 10, b Chelsea Mdx
Dau: Sarah 8,  b Chelsea Mdx
Dau: Lucy 5, b Chelsea Mdx
Dau: Ellen 3, b Chelsea Mdx

The JOHNSON family in 1861: at 1 Garden Cottages, Lambeth
RG 9 / Piece 356 /Folio 30 /Page 28 /
Head: Daniel JOHNSON, 32, Basket Maker, b Brampton, Mdx
Wife: Orliff 31, b U.K. Cambridgeshire
Son: James 13, Scholar, b St Georges, Surrey
Son: Daniel 9, Scholar, b St Georges, Surrey
Dau: Rebecca 7, Scholar, b St Georges, Surrey
Son: Peter 4, b St Georges, Surrey
Son: Dibars, days? Wks?, Scholar, b St Georges, Surrey

The JOHNSON family in 1851: at 61 Ann Street, Southwark
HO107 / Piece 1563/ Folio 232/ Pg 45
Head: Daniel JOHNSON, 26, Basket Maker, b  Kingston Surrey
Wife: Olivia 22, b Newbury, Berks
Son: James 3, b St George Southwark, Surrey
Dau: Pamella 1,  b St George Southwark, Surrey

Find the births of the Johnson children - not so easy, but there is:
GRO: Peter JOHNSON, J-Q 1857, St George the Martyr, Southwark, mms STANLEY
GRO:  - JOHNSON,  J-Q 1861, Lambeth, mms: STANDLEY  J, male birth, no first name.

The 1861 unnamed boy is  Diver JOHNSON.
He was born 20 Mar 1861, baptised St Mary Newington 21 April 1861 to parents Daniel & Olive Johnson,  Chair Caner, New Street.

Also  Baptised at St Mary Newington were a number of their other children - including
James JOHNSON,  born 18 Dec 1847, baptised 18 Apr 1849
Parents: Daniel and Olive JOHNSON, Kent Street, Labourer

Right above James' baptism  is:
Divers STANLEY born Dec 1846, baptised 15 April 1849.
Divers  & Naomi? STANLEY, Kent Street, Labourer

So, on the face of it, it doesn't appear that Olive STANLEY / JOHNSON is John's mother?
Still cannot find a marriage of Olive and Daniel - but they were a couple at least from the mid to late 1840's.

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

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Offline Jojo

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Re: Olive Mary Stanley - relative of John Stanley/Ireland?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 11 August 17 14:02 BST (UK) »
Thank you for all of this, Ambly.

Yes, if anything John Stanley/Ireland's DOB moves later, with a birth year of 1855 given in later census returns, so seems unlikely that he is Olive's son even though it seems her maiden name was Stanley. I need to do some work to see if I can uncover some other connection.

Interestingly I found this marriage yesterday, which could be John's sister:

28 May 1871
Parish Church, Croydon
James Hickey 30 Labourer Croydon Father Dennis Hickey, Labourer
Olive Ireland 26        Croydon Father Zechariah Ireland, Labourer
Witnesses John [Sheeter?] and Mary Ann Hickey

However, this has proved a dead end so far.
Thank you, I will keep looking  :)
Jojo

Offline AMBLY

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Re: Olive Mary Stanley - relative of John Stanley/Ireland?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 11 August 17 14:54 BST (UK) »
This is the Diver Stanley family from above - still living near the Daniel Johnson family (same street):

CENSUS 1851:
83 Ann Street, Southwark
Head: Diver STANLEY 28?, 26? Basket Maker, b Putney, Surrey
Wife: Neomi STANLEY 22, b High Wickham, Bucks
Dau: Sophia STANLEY 9, b Hastings, Sussex
Son: John STANLEY 4, b Hadlow, Kent
Son: George STANLEY 2, b Kingston Surrey

In 1861, this family is here, Wandsworth Surrey:
RG 9 / Piece 373 / Folio 22/ Page 17
Diver is 38, b Putney.

It seems certain that Diver STANLEY is related to Olive Mary STANLEY/JOHNSON?

From  my very basic knowledge of gypsy/traveler/romany folk, I believe it is very possible there are no civil marriages to be found - many couples simply never got legally married. And the birth registrations of the children would likely be haphazard too, particularly those births that occurred in the early 20 years or so post-1837 - more likely to find baptisms than birth registrations?

This is Diver's family here:
http://www.gypsyjib.com/page/Digger+Stanley

That's an interesting marriage you found....

I see from the other older topic (Reply #14), the Zachariah Ireland who died in the Workhouse, he looked a very possible candidate...

"Zachariah Ireland died 16 September 1861 in Union Workhouse, Battersea.  Age 40 yrs, Labourer.  Cause of death: phthisis pulmonalis.  Informant Wm Langley, who I assume was workhouse staff (haven't checked yet)"

Did you ever manage to track him down to the 1861 Census?

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline Jojo

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Re: Olive Mary Stanley - relative of John Stanley/Ireland?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 12 August 17 21:02 BST (UK) »
Thank you for this extra info. There are a few avenues for me  to look at here.

Looking through the link you gave, it's interesting that Diver was also listed as a waste paper dealer in 1881, and the address very close to John Stanley. It seems they must be connected somehow.

Regarding Zachariah Ireland, I believe there are some records lost from the 1861 census, so it's possible that he among those or maybe just hiding.

Thanks again,
Jojo

Offline AMBLY

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Re: Olive Mary Stanley - relative of John Stanley/Ireland?
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 13 August 17 02:02 BST (UK) »
Well this is interesting…

Recalling that in 1851, Daniel JOHNSON family was at 61 Ann Street, Kent Road district, Southwark St George. An address shared by 3 separate census headed households…..

At 63 Ann Street in 1851, a 4-headed address, was this family:
HO107/ Piece 1563 Folio 233 Pg46
Head: Holland STANLEY 30, Basket Maker, b Hampton, Middlesex
Wife: Lucy 24, b Reading, Berkshire
Dau: Olivia 7, b Dorking Surrey
Son: John 1, b St George Surrey

Your John Ireland/Stanley:
1881 RG11 Piece 549 Folio 32 Page 58 - Age 30, b Whitechapel (abt 1851)
1891 RG12 Piece 362 Folio 86 Page 62 - Age 40, b Newington, Surrey (abt 1851)
1901 RG13 Piece 512 Folio 62 Page 47 - Age 46, b Newington, Surrey (abt 1855)

The parish of St Mary Newington, was a clear choice of baptismal place for St George Southwark traveller/gypsy families.

I wonder if Holland (which is  a known traveller surname) is really Zachariah?
If son John is your John?
If Lucy's  maiden name might be Ireland?

But  having trouble advancing any of that household....not finding them anywhere else.

Cheers, AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline Jojo

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Re: Olive Mary Stanley - relative of John Stanley/Ireland?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 14 August 17 14:11 BST (UK) »
I hadn't come across Holland Stanley before, but as you say, no further sightings of this family...

I'm away for the next few days so I'll have to take a closer look when I'm back and see where I go from here.

Thank you very much for taking the time to help, Ambly  :)