Author Topic: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!  (Read 1935 times)

Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,193
  • 'Girl with firewood'
    • View Profile
Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 12 August 17 18:52 BST (UK) »
Hi Kay

All confusing isn't it!

Just adding the 1891 entry for further background here:

James Brown 22 slater b. Edinburgh
Jeanie Brown 21 b. Ireland
Eliz Brown 1 Month b. Airdrie

Address: Millars Court, Airdrie

This must be the births of Elizabeth in 1891 in Airdrie and Annie in Edinburgh 1897 that you have tilliemay:

Elizabeth MONTGOMERY - 1891 - ref. 651/1 257
Airdrie or New Monkland

Annie Brown MONTGOMERY - 1897 - ref. 685/2 224
St Andrews, Edinburgh

That 1901 census fits so well for James Brown and the two girls, Elizabeth and Annie though.

Wonder what happened to to Isabella Cummings and Jean Montgomery? Also a death for James Brown  :-\

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Kay99

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,398
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 12 August 17 19:13 BST (UK) »
Just to add to the confusion I think this might be the birth of Jane Brown although James is listed as  in the army??

Kay

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,193
  • 'Girl with firewood'
    • View Profile
Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 12 August 17 19:33 BST (UK) »
 ??? Confusion continues then, Kay!

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,193
  • 'Girl with firewood'
    • View Profile
Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 12 August 17 22:41 BST (UK) »
Kay, on the 1900 birth reg for Jane Brown, is there an original signature for father James Brown (assuming he was the informant)?

This is his original signature for the birth reg of Rose Horn Brown in 1889:

Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,193
  • 'Girl with firewood'
    • View Profile
Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 12 August 17 23:29 BST (UK) »
Going round in circles trying to find something conclusive with all these names...and failing  ::)

I thought this might be a possible entry for Mary Brown/Bennett in 1881 (haven't been able to find her so far with James in 1871):

Andrew Bennett 41 Late 72 Highlanders Pensioner b. Broughton, Edinburgh
Mary Bennett 46 wife b. Broughton, Edinburgh

Address: 42 Home St, Edinburgh

Maybe that possible marriage cert in 1866 could help further.

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline tillimay

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 10
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 12 August 17 23:37 BST (UK) »
Hello all - iluleah, Kay and Monica - thanks for the welcome and huge thanks for trying to unravel my mystery/mess!

I'll have to read and study all your suggestions - the only thing I can answer without thinking about it, is the question you asked Monica, about Isabella's death on 16 June 1945 - the informant is my husband's Granny, Elizabeth - Isabella died at her house, where my mother-in-law was born/grew up.  So that's a definite!  The death cert gives Hugh Cumming (gamekeeper) and Isabella m.s. Anderson as her parents. Couldn't trace them on ScotlandsPeople - I wonder if I should look further afield, England or Ireland? 

My m-i-l only knew her Aunt Annie, to her knowledge there was only Annie and her mum Elizabeth.  This of course wouldn't mean there wasn't another child who had died as a baby.  She also knew her Granny Isabella - or Granny Broon as she was known (she was the only lady that ever visited Niddrie in a fur coat!)  When I mentioned the name Jeanie Montgomery to my m-i-l it meant nothing, although it is the name her mum Elizabeth gave for her mother when she was married in 1907.  Eight years later when Annie got married she gave Isabella Cumming as her mother - both marriages are definitely correct as the husbands are the right ones.

The date of birth on Annie's birth certificate, which shows her as the illegitimate daughter of Jeanie Montgomery, is also correct as it's the same as on her death certificate - 8 Feb 1897.  Father is left blank, although she was given Brown as a middle name.

The dob on Elizabeth's birth certificate is one day out from the day she celebrated her birthday but not sure how relevant this is, I'm sure this kind of mistake happened, particularly if birth certificates bearing the word illegitimate were kept hidden.

The death certificates for both ladies had the mother's details reversed - Isabella Cumming on Elizabeth's (1969) and Jeanie Montgomery on Annie's (1978).  Sorry if I'm repeating myself, I keep hoping it'll make sense!

Yes Monica, I agree the 1901 Census entry fits well, as does the 1891 Census from Airdrie (m-i-l knows her mother was born in the Glasgow area) - apart from the different mother.  Or is she different, may be one morning Jeanie woke up and decided to call herself Isabella!

I'll have a closer look at the suggestions for James see if I can make it fit but without a marriage certificate for him and either Isabella or Jeanie, I'm not sure how I'll do that.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was no marriage, I've found a few that said they were married when they weren't!

One last thing, comparing the 1900 birth certificate for Jane and her death certificate in 1903 - the informant was James Brown on both and the signatures look the same.  But the mother is different - Isabella Cumming on the birth and Jane Brown m.s. Montgomery on the death.

I noticed that on Jane's birth certificate James was recorded as being in the Army Reserve - I went on to Fold3 and found papers for a James Brown, correct date, correct regiment but completely the wrong wife!  Enter Mary . . . obviously the wrong James.

So many James Browns . . . so little time!  But I'll keep on trying.

I am so frustrated and very thankful for all the help.


Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,193
  • 'Girl with firewood'
    • View Profile
Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 12 August 17 23:45 BST (UK) »
Possible for James in 1861? The 1859 birth entry I thought might be him showed him as James Mennie Brown, with mother as Mary Brown indicating an illegitimate birth. Often children were given reputed father's name including surname. 1861 has this entry which might fit:

Mary Brown 65 labourer's widow b. Musselburgh, Edinburgh
Mary Brown 31 daughter, Formerly Dairymaid b. Musselburgh, Edinburgh
Alexander Brown 7 grandson b. Musselburgh, Edinburgh
James Mennie 2 grandson b. Musselburgh, Edinburgh

Address: 49 Lady Lawsons Wynd, Edinburgh

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,193
  • 'Girl with firewood'
    • View Profile
Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 12 August 17 23:48 BST (UK) »
Elizabeth you mentioned married in 1907. Have you found Annie in 1911? Aged about 14?

What did Elizabeth and Annie say about their father James when they married in respect of alive or deceased? Any family names for witnesses at the time of their marriages?

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline tillimay

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 10
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 13 August 17 01:00 BST (UK) »
Hi again Monica and Kay

Below are James' signatures from Jane's birth and death certificates - I do think they look alike, unlike James' signature on Rose's birth, when the signature was just J Brown rather than James.

I thought I'd found Annie in 1911, not with her parents but as I didn't print the page when I was at SP last week, I can't remember the details.  I'll have to go back on that one. :-[

James was alive at the time of both Lizzie and Annie's marriages - or was recorded as such.  Witnesses were Alfred Aitken, Euphemia Meikle, Bernard Lynch and Robina Clark - unfortunately, none mean anything to me, as far as I can tell at the moment they weren't family members.

Thanks again!