Author Topic: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!  (Read 1164 times)

Offline MonicaL

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Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 13 August 17 12:30 BST (UK) »
Just a little summary on what we have so far on James' likely mother Mary Brown.

From her marriage in 1866 to Andrew Bennet that Kay supplied details from, her parents show as MacKenzie Brown and Mary Richardson.

This looks to be parents marriage in the OPRs from 1819 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY9Y-Q5N

1841 entry for family in Edinburgh:

McKenrie Brown 45 flesher
Mary Brown 40
Johan Brown 9
Mary Brown 8

Address: Morningside, Edinburgh

We had then Mary with mother Mary in 1861 on the census with son James Mennie (who we think might be the correct entry for James). Marriage in 1866 to Andrew Bennett. Census 1881 with Andrew Bennett. Missing 1851, 1871, and her death reg.

Positively straightforward compared to the rest so far!

Monica

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Offline Millmoor

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Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #28 on: Sunday 13 August 17 12:43 BST (UK) »
There is no sign of James Brown with the Isabella Cumming born in Sutherland - there appears to be only the one Isabella born in Sutherland in the  correct time frame in Dornoch in 1859  and baptised in Creich 10 Oct 1859.

Census date 1861 - age 1 with parents in Dornoch. 1871 age 10 in Dornoch with parents.1881 age 19 general servant  in home of Alexander McDonald. 1891 as Bella Brown age 27 showing as married age 27 with father,sister Euphemia and daughter Rose in Creich. Then there is Bella Cumming in 1901 age 37,general servant at Leopold House,Creich in the home of John Molson.

Incidentally I can also see only one death for an Isabella Cumming other name Brown (with a  year of birth of 1861 plus or minus three) . This is in Dennistoun, Glasgow in 1928.

Like Kay I cannot help but wonder if your idea of assumed identity has some merit!

William
Dent (Haltwhistle and Sacriston), Bell and Jetson (Haltwhistle), Postle, Ward, Longstaff, Purvis, Manners, Parnaby and Hardy (Co. Durham), Kennedy and McRobert (Banffshire), Reid(Bathgate), Watson (Wemyss), Graham (Libberton), Sandilands (Carmichael), Munro (Dingwall)

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Offline MonicaL

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Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #29 on: Sunday 13 August 17 13:23 BST (UK) »
William, great find for Isabella Cumming  ;) It is her, living in Glasgow. It confirms her marriage to James Brown, slater. Death reported by her sister. Parents as we have up in Dornoch Sutherland.

Jeanie taking on Isabella Cumming's identity is looking very possible...never come across this before...but why not really. They couldn't marry until after Isabella had died and she lived till 1928.

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Offline MonicaL

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Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #30 on: Sunday 13 August 17 16:11 BST (UK) »
Below are the 4 signatures we have for James Brown:

1. 1889 birth of Rose Horn Brown
2. 1890 Army Enlistment papers
3. Birth of daughter Jane
4. Death of daughter Jane

What do you all think? I am of a mind they are the same man. Can't include the 1888 marriage signature as this is a copy register and does not include original signatures on the register entries.

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Online Kay99

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Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #31 on: Sunday 13 August 17 16:15 BST (UK) »
I think so as well

I have been fiddling with the origins of Jeanie I keep coming back to this family in 1881 Living in Old Monkland, Lanarkshire

Hugh Montgomery 32 Hammerman  Tyrbone Ireland
Betsey Montgomery 31 Lanarkshire
Janey Montgomery 14 Ireland
Isabella Montgomery    5 Lanarkshire
Hugh Montgomery 3 Lanarkshire
Alexander Montgomery 9 Month

Checked the birth of Hugh and his mother's maiden name was Anderson!

Kay

Offline MonicaL

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Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 13 August 17 16:34 BST (UK) »
I can see why you are looking at that family, Kay. Looks promising for sure  :)

Trying to summarise and link some of the info we have so far.

We have the marriage of James Brown, slater, aged 27 and Isabella Cumming, domestic servant, aged 26. Marriage took place in Edinburgh on 25 July 1888. James' likely born illegitimate. On cert gives father's name as Andrew (name of step father) and mother Mary showing as now married to Andrew Bennet, previously married to a xxx Brown, maiden name Brown. Isabella's info is all over the place really. She gives her father as Mackenzie Cumming, iron moulder and Isabella Wilson. McKenzie was the name of James Brown's maternal Brown grandfather... Understand the jumble on names for James Brown but not for Isabella Cummings.

The birth cert for Rose Horn Brown in Edinburgh in 1889 also gives parents' marriage as being on 25 July 1888, parents James Brown, slater and Isabella Cummings. She remained with her mother's family it seems and married for the first time in 1913 in Glasgow. Remarried in 1917, also in Glasgow. She gave her father as James Brown, blacksmith. I am thinking this relates to her grandfather Donald Cummings, a blacksmith, likely deceased by then.

The birth cert for Jane in 1900, showed a marriage date for parents as being on 25 June (should be July) 1888 in the St George's district (correct) of Edinburgh.

With the additonal possible details on the Montgomery side that you have found Kay and the names linking to potentially Isabella/Jeanie's death reg in 1945 (Isabella and Elizabeth as we know are common variants).....

Looks likely young Elizabeth and Annie never knew about or met Rose b. 1889 it seems  :-\

Monica
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Offline Millmoor

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Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #33 on: Sunday 13 August 17 19:15 BST (UK) »
A very good summation Monica. I agree about the signatures. Clever Montgomery find, Kay.

Have you found them in the  1911 census, Tillimay? Wonder what they have written in the number of years married column.

William
Dent (Haltwhistle and Sacriston), Bell and Jetson (Haltwhistle), Postle, Ward, Longstaff, Purvis, Manners, Parnaby and Hardy (Co. Durham), Kennedy and McRobert (Banffshire), Reid(Bathgate), Watson (Wemyss), Graham (Libberton), Sandilands (Carmichael), Munro (Dingwall)

Offline tillimay

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Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #34 on: Sunday 13 August 17 23:45 BST (UK) »
William - I didn't find them in the 1911 Census, certainly not together (apart from Elizabeth who was married in 1907), that would have been too easy! But armed with the print out of this thread, I will be going to ScotlandsPeople for more thorough checking.  It has also proved that I need to keep better notes of the searches I have done  :-[ ::)

Kay - as Monica says the Montgomery family you found in Old Monkland look very interesting . . . do you know where they were living in 1891?  The birth certificate I have for Elizabeth (27 Feb 1891) has Jeanie Montgomery giving birth at 13 Wellwynd Street, Airdrie.  Also, one thing that might be worth mentioning, Jeanie was illiterate, marking an X on both Elizabeth's and Annie's birth certificates.  On the extract you posted from Hugh's 1877 birth certificate I see that Mum Elizabeth signed her name - do you think it's likely that Mum could write whereas her daughter couldn't, unless she had, what we would call today, learning difficulties? 

Also, looking at the family there is a Janey age 14, b. in Ireland which would tie in with the 1891 Census where James Brown, 32, slater, b. Edinburgh, is living in New Monkland, Airdrie, with Jeannie, 21, b. Ireland and 1 month old Elizabeth b. Airdrie.  The age doesn't quite add up but if the Hugh and Elizabeth were married in 1868 (can't quite read it) and Janey was born after they were married (!) that would probably make her born 1869 - same as my Isabella.  What do you think?

More confirmation comes from the 1911 Census when Elizabeth is married, which gives her place of birth as Airdrie, Lanarkshire - the given names of her first two children were Isabella Galbraith Brown and Jane Montgomery (called Jeanie on 1911 Census).  I think there is a Scottish naming pattern, can you draw any conclusions from these names?

I am still floundering a bit here but I have lots to work on - many thanks to all!  ;D

Online Kay99

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Re: James Brown and two women in Edinburgh - could it get any more difficult?!
« Reply #35 on: Monday 14 August 17 07:59 BST (UK) »
At the moment I can only see one of the 1881 Montgomery family post 1881.   Anc has the WW1 pension record for Alexander Montgomery b 1880 Old Monkland.    A marriage is listed on 3 Jan 1908
at Parkhead to Janet Guthier or Guthrie (widow) and he is listed as previously serving 12 years in the HLI and MI ?   His family were living at Castle Douglas Kirkcudbrightshire in 1914

I think this is the marriage of Hugh and Betsy Montgomery https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGZF-2X1 which ties the details of the marriage on the birth cert. I attach the birth of their daughter Isabella which I think is more legible.  It is possible Janey/Jeanie was born pre the parents marriage or age of the census is out  :-\   Based on Hugh and Isabella's birth cert's both parents could write and I agree that you would expect their daughter to be capable of signing her name

Will return to fiddling.   I wish we could find James and Isabella/Jeanie in 1911

Kay