Author Topic: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions  (Read 1775 times)

Offline Rena

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Re: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 13 August 17 14:00 BST (UK) »
I've enjoyed your additional input Bob, John, Malky, Regonain and sallyyorks - the links provided have been extremely interesting, but I wouldn't get good grades on any exam papers  :D.

I noted the comments about tribal intermarrying but it seems to me that my ancestors from several Scottish Counties married spouses with fair skin and blue eyes and the same thing happened with my English tribes who were also born and bred in far flung counties.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

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Offline Regorian

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Re: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 13 August 17 14:31 BST (UK) »
I would have expected most Romans to have left Britannia when the Legions were withdrawn. The Birley family bought Vinderlanda in the 1930's. It has been a treasure trove of artifacts ever since. The Batavian (Dutch) auxiliary infantry cohort (battalion) may have been from c410 when it left, but I don't know.

England is largely Anglo Saxon, Danes and Norse. For instance from mid England Northwards are place names ending in by or a secondary name Thorpe. These are Danish. Remember England could have ended up called Daneland, if it wasn't for Alfred the Great. He was the man who envisaged Englaland...England. It took a long time and his children and beyond to Athelstan. The Danes and Norse were not exterminated, but their leaders were or forced out. Cumbria is inhabited by Norse who had been driven out of Ireland by the Irish. Melvyn Bragg is proud to be a Viking.

My family lived in the Forest of Dean in the 19th Century. There were lots of Welsh and Irish in the Forest. Originally, Dean was Welsh.

In the last 150 years, much migration everywhich way. Modern DNA testing says next to nothing of who lived where previously.

   

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Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 13 August 17 15:03 BST (UK) »


England is largely Anglo Saxon, Danes and Norse...


Not as much as used to be thought
Oxford University/The Wellcome Trust did a DNA study, the largest of its kind, of British people, the findings were published in 2015.
Their research suggested that the majority of English peoples DNA was not Anglo Saxon, Dane or Norse and was still from the Pre Roman era. They had expected more Anglo Saxon than they actually found (around 10 to 40% % ?).
The colours on the map in the link represent relatedness to each other and not an actual  nation/ethnic group. So the red doesn't represent 'Anglo-Saxon'or 'Dane' for example. It just means they are closer in relation, than to other colours, but still related to the other colours (hope that makes sense). So the blue triangles of West Yorkshire have more in common with each other than any other group but they are still related to everyone else. Hope I have got that right.
It's interesting research and was a very large comprehensive study

Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics Who do you think you really are?
http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/who-do-you-think-you-really-are
'The analyses suggest there was a substantial migration across the channel after the original post-ice-age settlers, but before Roman times. DNA from these migrants spread across England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, but had little impact in Wales.  These migrations, probably over many years, are probably the largest single contributor to the DNA of much of modern England, but effectively nothing is known about them.'




Offline Regorian

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Re: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 13 August 17 18:34 BST (UK) »
I hesitate to take on academic knowledge which should be irrefutable. However, being 74, I have been witness to the social attitudes during my time. Back in the 50's and 60's there was considerable anti-Welsh sentiment. The sing-song Welsh accent was grating to the English ear. A year or so ago a Welsh woman Dot with strong accent commentated on tennis for BBC, she doesn't now. Now, the Welsh are just ignored.

A couple of years ago, I attended a dinner with 6 or 8 People in a rather nice Thai restaurant in Basingstoke, all middle class professionals. Someone made some remark and I replied 'well, the English are krauts'. Shock, horror, silence. Eventually, someone muttered, 'the Royal Family perhaps'.

It seems that the English have been distancing themselves from their Germanic roots, rewriting history.   

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 13 August 17 19:51 BST (UK) »
I hesitate to take on academic knowledge which should be irrefutable. However, being 74, I have been witness to the social attitudes during my time. Back in the 50's and 60's there was considerable anti-Welsh sentiment. The sing-song Welsh accent was grating to the English ear. A year or so ago a Welsh woman Dot with strong accent commentated on tennis for BBC, she doesn't now. Now, the Welsh are just ignored.

A couple of years ago, I attended a dinner with 6 or 8 People in a rather nice Thai restaurant in Basingstoke, all middle class professionals. Someone made some remark and I replied 'well, the English are krauts'. Shock, horror, silence. Eventually, someone muttered, 'the Royal Family perhaps'.

It seems that the English have been distancing themselves from their Germanic roots, rewriting history.   


I don't know what they used to teach in your Welsh school about English history but it sounds like something out of the Edwardian, even the Victorian, era!
Perhaps your fellow diners didn't have a clue what you meant by your strange 'reply', and went silent because they were trying to be polite?

Offline youngtug

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Re: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 13 August 17 20:20 BST (UK) »
I hesitate to take on academic knowledge which should be irrefutable. However, being 74, I have been witness to the social attitudes during my time. Back in the 50's and 60's there was considerable anti-Welsh sentiment. The sing-song Welsh accent was grating to the English ear. A year or so ago a Welsh woman Dot with strong accent commentated on tennis for BBC, she doesn't now. Now, the Welsh are just ignored.

A couple of years ago, I attended a dinner with 6 or 8 People in a rather nice Thai restaurant in Basingstoke, all middle class professionals. Someone made some remark and I replied 'well, the English are krauts'. Shock, horror, silence. Eventually, someone muttered, 'the Royal Family perhaps'.

It seems that the English have been distancing themselves from their Germanic roots, rewriting history.   


I don't know what they used to teach in your Welsh school about English history but it sounds like something out of the Edwardian, even the Victorian, era!
Perhaps your fellow diners didn't have a clue what you meant by your strange 'reply', and went silent because they were trying to be polite?

Apart from the use of a derogatory and offensive term
.http://www.rootschat.com/links/05q2/   
  WILSON;-Wiltshire.
 SOUL;-Gloucestershire.
 SANSUM;-Berkshire-Wiltshire
 BASSON-BASTON;- Berkshire,- Oxfordshire.
 BRIDGES;- Wiltshire.
 DOWDESWELL;-Wiltshire,Gloucestershire
 JORDAN;- Berkshire.
 COX;- Berkshire.
 GOUDY;- Suffolk.
 CHATFIELD;-Sussex-- London
 MORGAN;-Blaenavon-Abersychan
 FISHER;- Berkshire.
 BLOMFIELD-BLOOMFIELD-BLUMFIELD;-Suffolk.
DOVE. Essex-London
YOUNG-Berkshire
ARDEN.
PINEGAR-COLLIER-HUGHES-JEFFERIES-HUNT-MOSS-FRY

Offline John915

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Re: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 13 August 17 22:06 BST (UK) »
Good evening,

I hesitate to take on academic knowledge which should be irrefutable. However, being 74, I have been witness to the social attitudes during my time. Back in the 50's and 60's there was considerable anti-Welsh sentiment. The sing-song Welsh accent was grating to the English ear. A year or so ago a Welsh woman Dot with strong accent commentated on tennis for BBC, she doesn't now. Now, the Welsh are just ignored.

A couple of years ago, I attended a dinner with 6 or 8 People in a rather nice Thai restaurant in Basingstoke, all middle class professionals. Someone made some remark and I replied 'well, the English are krauts'. Shock, horror, silence. Eventually, someone muttered, 'the Royal Family perhaps'.

It seems that the English have been distancing themselves from their Germanic roots, rewriting history.   


I don't know what they used to teach in your Welsh school about English history but it sounds like something out of the Edwardian, even the Victorian, era!
Perhaps your fellow diners didn't have a clue what you meant by your strange 'reply', and went silent because they were trying to be polite?

Apart from the use of a derogatory and offensive term

I agree YT, plus our roots are not just Germanic but cover the whole of Europe and beyond. This country has a truly cosmopolitan background and even more so in the present day.

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

Offline Rena

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Re: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 13 August 17 22:24 BST (UK) »
I would have expected most Romans to have left Britannia when the Legions were withdrawn. The Birley family bought Vinderlanda in the 1930's. It has been a treasure trove of artifacts ever since. The Batavian (Dutch) auxiliary infantry cohort (battalion) may have been from c410 when it left, but I don't know.

England is largely Anglo Saxon, Danes and Norse. For instance from mid England Northwards are place names ending in by or a secondary name Thorpe. These are Danish. Remember England could have ended up called Daneland, if it wasn't for Alfred the Great. He was the man who envisaged Englaland...England. It took a long time and his children and beyond to Athelstan. The Danes and Norse were not exterminated, but their leaders were or forced out. Cumbria is inhabited by Norse who had been driven out of Ireland by the Irish. Melvyn Bragg is proud to be a Viking.

My family lived in the Forest of Dean in the 19th Century. There were lots of Welsh and Irish in the Forest. Originally, Dean was Welsh.

In the last 150 years, much migration everywhich way. Modern DNA testing says next to nothing of who lived where previously.
 

Of the millions of people trying to trace their roots, a minority have had their DNA tested and have been querying where a small percentage of their genepool originated, which is different from where they lived in recorded history. 

I don't study ancient history but have picked up a smidgen from watching such programmes as "Time Team" where I've heard scholars explaining that important Romans did in fact marry daughters of rich local tribal leaders.  And since reading about rich slaves I'm all the more intrigued!

As for the era when North of Watford was governed by Dane Law, I still use words of Danish origin, such as "gelt" for cash (Have you got any gelt on you?) which derives from Danegelt currency.

The only thing I know about the Welsh is that they're extremely difficult to trace, even the 19th century ancestors lol.

Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline Rena

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Re: Roman Empire in the UK and DNA of the Roman Legions
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 13 August 17 22:44 BST (UK) »
A year or so ago a Welsh woman Dot with strong accent commentated on tennis for BBC, she doesn't now. Now, the Welsh are just ignored.


As I probably live in a different area to you (the English north west)  I receive different BBC and ITV channels and can assure you that there are plenty of daily and weekly Welsh presenters, some with Welsh lilts and some with barely discernable accents.  Just today I have listened to presenters Iwan Thomas, Gabby (Yorath) Logan, and Colin Jackson.

Tomorrow evening I will be watching bubbly female TV host Alex Jones.  Two of my favourite regular programme host presenters are Sian Williams and Aled Jones.  The list goes on.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke