South Londoners buried at Manor Park.

[floatingboater]

To avoid duplication i have started this thread at the suggestion of another contributor. My original
question was on London and Middlesex »London & Middlesex Lookup Requests
Marriage: Jewish
I'll try to keep it as brief as possible.
I'm trying to find out why a family, which i believe were Jewish, would be buried at Manor Park, Newham when they lived in Southwark and Camberwell. All other lines of my ancestors from this period are buried locally in Camberwell or Nunhead.

23/8/1826 William Goodman marries Charlotte Potter at Christchurch & St. Leonard`s, Foster Lane
Children; Susannah, 1832-1837. Thomas 1834-?. WILLIAM 1838-1883. George 1843-? Susannah
was buried at St. George the Martyr, Southwark, but WILLIAM at Manor Park. I don't know about Thomas or George.
~~~~~~~~-------------
WILLIAM married Susan Forrest 17/9/1866, she had already had William James 6/12/1862 and John 28/9/1864. Baptism record says she was a single woman. John died in 1865 i don't know where he is buried. William James (my gr. g'father) grows up with the Goodman name but when he marries Charlotte Cable/Caple 5/5/1884 he is William Forrest again. (Possibly rejecting William Goodman as his natural father, i don't know.)
William & Charlottes children, 10 died before 1911, these 5 burials are all i can find in Manor Park plus parents.

1890 29 Jan, Charlotte Forrest Aged 3 (Birth maiden name Hopkins?) But the census shows she was this family.
1890 3 Dec, William Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Capel)
1891 21 Oct, James Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Cable)
1892 26 Sep, Thomas Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Cable)
1901 30 Apr, Susan Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Cable)

1912 Charlotte Forrest (nee Cable) aged 48      
1914 William Forrest aged 52
~~~~~~~~--------
These are births who either survived to later life or died young but, to the best of my knowledge, were not buried in Manor Park.

1885 4Q William Forrest born & died aged 0, no burial record. (Maiden name Cable on GRO.)
1886 25 Aug Sarah Forrest born (Birth maiden name Capel) Buried Nunhead 1945. (my G'mother))
1894 1Q John Forrest reg'd, born 13 Nov 1893 (maiden name Hopkins?) unknown burial.
1895 1 Apr Alfred Forrest born (maiden name Capel) Buried in New Zealand 1950
1897 2Q Charlotte Forrest born (maiden name Cable) Buried in Clacton. 1976
1902 2Q Emma Forrest born (maiden name Cable). Buried Ealing district 1980
1904 1Q Charles & Robert Forrest born & died aged 0 (maiden name Cable)
         both buried 29th Jan Camberwell Old.
1905 2Q Rosina Forrest born (maiden name Cable) died 1966 Hillingdon
1909 4Q William Forrest born (maiden name Cable) died 1986 Lewisham

My parents told me that my grandmother was Jewish, she married a Catholic of Irish descent which did not please her parents at the time.
The Forrest and Hopkins families were very close, even in the same house on some census. I can't find Charlotte Cables baptism or presence on any census before she married. I even suspect Charlotte Hopkins and Charlotte Cable may be the same person but can't prove it.

[Bookbox]

If I’ve understood correctly, there are two separate issues here, (1) place of burial and (2) possible Jewish origins, and these have become confused.

(1) Manor Park was not a Jewish cemetery. So the burial of your people there does not support the theory that anyone in the family was Jewish. Jews who died in London at this period had a large choice of consecrated Jewish cemeteries to go to. They are unlikely to have chosen Manor Park.

As was mentioned in your other thread, it was very common for people from Southwark/Bermondsey to be buried in east London cemeteries. Even though some of the family were buried at Camberwell and Nunhead, unless these were private family graves, there would be no reason to expect everyone in the family to be buried there, especially when the family was large and there were many infant deaths. As well as pressure on burial space, cost may have been a factor – Manor Park was a newer cemetery than Camberwell, with more space available, and might have been offering a better deal at the relevant time.

(2) On the matter of your grandmother, Sarah Forrest born 1886, Jewish heritage passes down the maternal line, not the paternal line. So if you believe Sarah was Jewish, it is her mother Charlotte Capel/Cable who should be investigated, not her father William James Forrest aka Goodman. In any case, according to your information above, William James Forrest born 1862 was illegitimate, born 4 years before his mother Susan Forrest married William Goodman, so his blood-line may not have been Goodman at all. Even if it was, the surname Goodman has origins in England going back to medieval times. It is of course true that some Jewish families also have that name -- many of them will have anglicised it from a European surname.

From the information you’ve posted above, with all those Anglican baptisms, marriages and burials, it is hard to see any evidence of Jewish heritage in this family as things stand. But if you still want to pursue it you might want to focus instead on Charlotte Capel/Cable.

Have you already posted elsewhere asking for help with Charlotte’s origins? If so, please post a link to the earlier thread.

[JustinL]

Hello ... again

Why indeed? I'll be interested to see other responses.

How did parents cope with losing so many children? It is unimaginable.

Fashion, prestige, cost, availability of a local plot could have possibly played a role in their decision to bury family members in Manor Park. What were the local options? Do you know where other family members were buried in the 1890s?

Addressing some of other points:

Censuses indicate that Charlotte was born in Newington in about 1864/65. Surely Charlotte Cable Q3 1864 Newington 1d p206 is her birth registration. Are you suggesting that because you cannot find a baptism record she wasn't baptised?

I fail to see how on earth your grandmother, Sarah Forrest, (and her parents, siblings and grandparents) could have possibly been Jewish. Did either her parents or grandparents marry 'in accordance with Jewish rites and customs'? Sarah's grandparents - William G. and Charlotte P. -
 married in an Anglican church. You have mentioned baptisms and you have located numerous burials in CofE cemeteries.

Following up on Bookbox's point about Jewish heritage, in actual fact, a person wishing to officially marry in accordance with Jewish rites (in a synagogue or elsewhere) in the 19th century would have needed to provide evidence that their parents had been married in accordance with Jewish rites, i.e. present the Jewish marriage certificate, before the Chief Rabbi would authorise the marriage.

Evidence of Jewishness isn't exactly jumping out at me and I have been researching the Jewish side of my family for over 15 years.

Are you parents still around to be quizzed further?

Could it be that your grandmother may have adopted or observed some rather unusual Christian customs that were often associated with Judaism? 

Cheers, Justin

[sandiep]

I have looked at all my records for Bevis Marks and the Great Synagogue and cant find any of these names
I see Charlotte is registered as Charlotte Cable 1864 Newington and mothers maiden name as Eden which might be worth you sending for


Results: 
Name:
Mother's Maiden Surname: 
  
CABLE, CHARLOTTE    
EDEN  
 
GRO Reference: 1864  S Quarter in NEWINGTON  Volume 01D  Page 2

[floatingboater]

Thank you all for your replies, i think it's now established that the burials had nothing to do with any possible Jewishness. All other family from that period were buried locally at Camberwell or Nunhead. I agree Jewishness is not Jumping out at  us here and i have no other evidence apart from family stories passed down, there is nobody left from that generation to ask now.
With regard to Charlotte Cable/Caple i've been trying to find her roots for a long time without success. I'm sure i haven't posted here before
but apologies in advance if somebody finds anything.

That birth, at the GRO, of Charlotte Cable was 14th July 1864, Woods buildings, Walworth. Parents Walter and Emma (nee Eden).  Source, birth cert.
The GRO shows an earlier, 2Q 1863, birth and death of Emma, maiden name Eaton. So i tried going down that path but couldn't find a related marriage of Cable/ Caple/ Cappell/Eden/Eaton

The only Walter Cable marriage i can find for that period was 2Q 1865 to Elizabeth Pope in Bermondsey. Checking child births and census suggests to me they were not Charlottes parents. Walter died 1894 in Camberwell.
My g'mother Charlotte Caple (as it is spelt on the marriage cert) says her fathers name was John Caple (deceased). That was dated 5th May 1884, she was aged  20. I have searched through dozens of John Caple/Cable records but can't link any of them to Charlotte. I'm currently looking into the possibility that Charlotte Hopkins 16 on the 1881 census, and working for the Goodmans may have something to do with all this. I can't find Charlotte Cable before her marriage and no conclusive Charlotte Hopkins after it. Also my previous posts re children born with maiden name Forrest gets confused with the Hopkins name on a couple of records which i can't explain.

[sandiep]

strange thing on 1871 a John Hopkins b 1839 wife Emma b 1849 had a daughter Charlotte b 1863
all from Newington/Walworth and a son 1870
Now this John Hopkins in 1881 is living in Clandon street which is the street that Charlotte & William give on their marriage cert different no but still

[floatingboater]

Yes, in 1871 John & Emma Hopkins  with John 1 and Charlotte 8 were at 132 East St. Walworth. William & Susan (nee Forrest) Goodman were at 5 Sandford Row, Newington only a few streets away wiith their kids including my G-G'father William James Goodman 9 who would later take back the Forrest name. The 1881 census you speak of is interesting because the Head of household at 39 Clandon St is Ann Forrest 66. She is Susan Forrests mother. Not far away at 9 Pleasant Row, Newington lived William & Susan Goodman with my G-G'fater
William 18 and notably Charlotte Hopkins 16 (Servant). Going back to John & Emma Hopkins this is what i've found so far.
1838.   John Hopkins is born in Bedford Street, Walworth about now according to 1871 & 1881 census he was aged 32 and 43.
1843.   1Q Emma Maria Eaton is born in New Kent Road area, maiden name Banner. She has John Hopkins children but I can't find a marriage. On my earlier post i had Eden and Eaton together thinking they may be the same person but now apparently not.
Below are GRO births for Hopkins, problem is i don't know who Barker is.

Name:             Mother's Maiden Surname:     
 HOPKINS, HENRY           BARKER      
GRO Reference: 1857  J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 13
Name:             Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, ELIZABETH  MARTHA      BARKER      
GRO Reference: 1858  S Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 4    
Name:             Mother's Maiden Surname:     
HOPKINS, CHARLOTTE        BARKER      
GRO Reference: 1861  J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 12

Births below are a match for the 1881 census John & Emma Hopkins at 39 Clandon St with the Forrest's.

Name:       Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, JOHN        EATON      
GRO Reference: 1869  D Quarter in NEWINGTON NOW SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 263
HOPKINS, MARIA        EATON        
GRO Reference: 1872  J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR'S SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 123
HOPKINS, THOMAS        EATON        
GRO Reference: 1873  D Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 147
HOPKINS, MARY  ANN      EATON        
GRO Reference: 1876  M Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 170
HOPKINS, SARAH  ANN      EATON      
GRO Reference: 1878  S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 139
HOPKINS, EMMA        EATON        
GRO Reference: 1880  D Quarter in ST SAVIOURS SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 118
HOPKINS, JOSEPH        EATON      
GRO Reference: 1882  D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 149

Death Results:
Name:    Age at Death (in years):
HOPKINS, SARAH        1      
GRO Reference: 1878  M Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR  Volume 01D  Page 22

In a nutshell the only birth for Charlotte Cable is 3Q 1864 Newington parents Walter & Elizabeth nee Eden.
Chalottes marriage in 1884 states her fathers names is John (deceased). If Walter also had the name John, he's still alive.
Charlotte Hopkins is roughly the same age Charlotte Cable/ Caple.
Who is Barker who gave birth to Charlotte Hopkins in 1861 and is she the same Charlotte as in the census?