Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?

[louisa maud]

"Marriage in C of E church. St Martins-in-the Fields. 4th October 1863 to Hannah Fuller (born 1832). Both partners "Of Full Age" John is a bachelor,  a labourer and his father is called James and is a carpenter by trade. Both partners living in St Martin's Lane (no house number)"

Witnesses: Charles Perks and M. H (probably Hannah's sister Martha) Fuller
~~~~~~~~------------------

Charles also lived in St Martins Lane, there must be a connection

LM

[Jolee]

In the 1841 and 1851 census Hannah says her parents are John and Hannah Fuller, there are no Fullers in the Prittlewell Church records, and although I cannot find Hannah there is a John and Hannah Fuller having children in Prittlewell but they are non conformists

Just seen the replies on the Essex Board looks like Hannah was baptised C of E then the family changed their religion not unusual

[coombs]

Charles Perks was born 1806 in St martin In The Fields to William and Mary Perks. He had a brother William Larkin Perks born in 1803 and the eldest child Mary Ann Perks was baptised in 1794. A William Perks wed a Mary Harman in 1792 in Holborn.

[Jill Eaton]

Notting Dale as far as I'm aware was in the Kensington Reg. District. I can see only 1 possible candidate: Mar. Q 1871 aged 48.

Thanks Jim

Hannah and her twin daughters were living at Westminster Building, St John Westminster by the time the 1871 census was taken (2 April 1871) RG10 Piece 120, Folio 25, page 43.
I don't know if she moved there with John or after his death.

Consequently, his place of death and subsequent registration district may not be in the Notting Dale area.

Realistically, I'll have to order your suggested certificate to either confirm or rule it out.

[Jill Eaton]

1851 Charles Perks was unmarried age 44 occ Stationer b St Martins in the Fields and living at 110 St martins Lane

by 1861 he had married and was living in Chiswick#Charles Perks head M 54 master Stationer
Emily wife 34
Emily daughter 7
Frank son 7
Anne daughter 3
all b St martin in the Fields
RG9 780 9 12

so Charles fathered twins too??

don't know if this will help at all

Suz

the twins connection is certainly food for thought. Mary Williams (one of John's twin daughters) is my maternal great grandmother. My maternal cousin is the father of twin boys.
It could be the Charles Perks is related to John Williams.

[Jill Eaton]

BUT
Charles isn't who we are looking for , what other information do you have on this family Jill,  do want any further information on Charles and his family ?

LM

Hannah and her twins were living at Westminster St John the Evangelist in 1871. I think the original describes her as a Widow and Charwoman. Both daughters are aged 5 and "scholars"

By 1881 the family are living in Gt Peter Street, Hanover Square.
Hannah is laundry-mangler
The girls are laundry ironers

In 1884 Mary marries a Catholic called Cornelius Harrington (he is born in Westminster to Irish parents) at St Mary's chapel, Horseferry Road, Westminster

In 1890 the younger Hannah marries Williams Bradshaw (born Gosport England of Irish parents)
at the same Roman catholic chapel

Notting Dale and Gt Peter Street were pretty grim places to live in Westminster at that time.

[Jill Eaton]

In the 1841 and 1851 census Hannah says her parents are John and Hannah Fuller, there are no Fullers in the Prittlewell Church records, and although I cannot find Hannah there is a John and Hannah Fuller having children in Prittlewell but they are non conformists

Just seen the replies on the Essex Board looks like Hannah was baptised C of E then the family changed their religion not unusual

By non-conformist I always assume Protestant - Baptist, Independent etc but could it also mean a conversion to Catholicism?

[wilcoxon]

You wrote -
I've checked the Westminster rate books for the years 1861 to 1865. There is also a John Williams living at 115 St Martin's Lane
By 1871 his wife Hannah is now a widow and living in Westminster 1871 RG10/120/25/Page43.

Morning Post London. May 12 1856.
A lady is looking for a position .  Her address is MD. -  Mr Perks , Stationer. 110 St Martins  Lane.
 
Morning Post London. May 13. 1857.
A lady is looking for a post as a Governess .
She gives her contact details as M.N. - Miss Abbot , 115 St Martins Lane, W.C.

 This isn`t really much help ,  but perhaps the Williams family had moved from 115 before May 1857.

[Jill Eaton]

You wrote -
I've checked the Westminster rate books for the years 1861 to 1865. There is also a John Williams living at 115 St Martin's Lane
By 1871 his wife Hannah is now a widow and living in Westminster 1871 RG10/120/25/Page43.

Morning Post London. May 12 1856.
A lady is looking for a position .  Her address is MD. -  Mr Perks , Stationer. 110 St Martins  Lane.
 
Morning Post London. May 13. 1857.
A lady is looking for a post as a Governess .
She gives her contact details as M.N. - Miss Abbot , 115 St Martins Lane, W.C.

 This isn`t really much help ,  but perhaps the Williams family had moved from 115 before May 1857.

One of the (many) conundrums with this ancestor is his class/place in society. He describes himself as a labourer and by 1865 the family don't seem to be faring at all well,. Notting Hill, as described in the BBC history October 2016 issue regarding Victorian slums, is a truly appalling place.(not sure if I'm allowed to post this! )

http://www.historyextra.com/article/bbc-history-magazine/life-19th-century-slum-victorian-london-homes-hell?page=5

And yet, is he WAS living at 115 St Martins Lane at any point, it does seem to imply that he may not have always been poor. Unless 115 was a lodging house?