Author Topic: WYLLIE - Why would a Tailor from Kincardineshire move to Dublin in the 1790s?  (Read 4509 times)

Offline Liviani

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Of course this would all be speculation, but I'd like to have a look some scenarios where this would happen.

My 5x great-grandparents are George Wyllie and Ann Dick. Ann is b. abt 1766 in Kincardineshire as per 1841 census.

I have the following children for George and Ann;

Jean b.1790 Bervie
William b.1794 Fettercairn
Elizabeth b.1800 Ireland
Agnes b.1802 Dublin, Ireland
A possible other named Beatie b. abt 1810, Arbuthnott

Their daughter Agnes is my 4x great-grandmother. Agnes marries James Valentine in 1828 in Fordoun. She dies at Westerton of Pitarrow, Fordoun in Feb 1881. On her death certificate it states her parents as George Wyllie (Tailor) and Ann Dick. On her brother William's death cert it also states that George Wyllie was a Tailor again.

At some point, Ann Wyllie m.s Dick moves back to Kincardineshire with William, Elizabeth and Agnes. I don't know if her husband ever came back to Scotland or if he died in Ireland (or elsewhere if military?). William Wyllie b.1794 gets married in Kinneff & Catterline in 1819 and dies in Aberdeen in 1858. I would assume he would've gone to Ireland with his parents along with Jean. I do not have any further info on Jean.

Ann Dick is in the 1841 census with her daughter Elizabeth at Reisk, Arbuthnott. They are both paupers here, no sign of the husband. Agnes the other daughter is with her husband James Valentine (a carter) in 1841 in Luthermuir, Marykirk. By 1851 Agnes is a widow still in Luthermuir, her place of birth now states Dublin, Ireland. Her sister Eliz(s)abeth in 1851 is at Mosside, Arbuthnott, still unmarried, place of birth Ireland. Elizabeth is there with a sister Beatie aged 41 born about 1810 Arbuthnott, but cannot find any records of her elsewhere.

So, George Wyllie and Ann Dick have a child (William) in 1794 and their next child that I have is Elizabeth born about 1800 in Ireland. So within those 5 years they have moved to Ireland. Why would this happen? Would this be for military reasons? I have very little information on George due to the lack of records available on him. He ended up a Tailor somewhere as it's on 2 of his children's death certs. I haven't had any luck at all on searching military transcriptions. I have a feeling that Agnes and Elizabeth's births aren't recorded anywhere in Ireland in this time period. I haven't been able to find anything on them at all. So this would all be speculation. What was the situation like in Dublin around 1800?, was this a place where families moved to if a man joined the military? Any suggestions gratefully received. It's been bothering me for quite some time.

Many thanks,

Jill
mtDNA subclade K1b2b. Father's Y-DNA I-S25383
GEDmatch kit; CF7867455
Father's kit; RY1336515
Mother's kit; AF2312865


Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie.
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Elder, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott.
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray, Kennedy, McGregor
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: WYLLIE - Why would a Tailor from Kincardineshire move to Dublin in the 1790s?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 30 August 17 04:17 BST (UK) »
If he was in army or militia there were ample reasons for him to be sent to Ireland.
There was a major European war going on as a consequence of the French Revolution 1789. Britain and her allies were at war with France from the early 1790s, after execution of King Louis  until 1815, with a couple of brief armistices. The new French government was succeeded in time by Napoleon Bonaparte who made himself Emperor and had ambitions to conquer the rest of Europe and parts of overseas territories of other European powers. So it wasn't just a European war, it stretched across the globe.
Britain was at risk of French invasion. A few French troops did manage to land on the south coast of England. On another occasion Jane Austen, out for a cliff-top walk, witnessed a naval battle.
The territory most vulnerable to French invasion was Ireland, "England's back-door".  Ireland had to be well fortified.
Ireland was having its' own insurrections and rebellions at this time. There was sectarian violence in some counties. (G***le Whiteboys, Defenders, Oakboys, just a few of the many local groups causing mischief.)  There was a Parliament in Dublin, with very limited powers and subject to the British Parliament in Westminster. Inspired by French Revolutionary ideals, the Society of United Irishmen was founded (g**le it). One of the leaders, Wolfe Tone and some others,  went to Paris to get support from the French government. A French invasion fleet was promised. Meanwhile back in Ireland the authorities were cracking down on any possible dissent. Brutal methods of coercion included pitch-cappings and half-hangings; and that was just for suspects or to make an example of someone as a warning to others. The Orange Order was also founded in the 1790s and was encouraged by the authorities as a defence against the United Irishmen movement. (The Society of United Irishmen was non-sectarian, many of the leaders were Protestant.) First attempted French invasion fleet was unsuccessful. 1798 was the year of Irish rebellions. That Spring there were United Irishmen risings in County Wicklow (just south of Dublin) and Wexford further south. There were atrocities on both sides. Defeat of the rebels was followed by executions and more repression. Late that summer the French invasion force finally landed in the western county of Mayo. Locals joined them. They took the town of Castlebar and proclaimed the Republic of Connaught. Success and the republic were short-lived. After their defeat the French army was treated honourably as POWs but it was a different story for the native Irish, being rebels.
A consequence of the 1798 rebellions was abolition of the Irish Parliament a few years later. Some Irish MPs were allegedly bribed to vote for abolition.
Robert Emmett planned a rising in Dublin in 1803 but he was arrested and hanged.
Thousands of troops were stationed in Ireland at any one time from late 18thC- late 19thC. One source suggested as many as 20,000. (My own grandmother married one of them.)
From research I've done on another branch of my family I know that all 3 regiments of the Lancashire Militia, comprising around 3000 men were stationed in Dublin 1813-1816. They were supposed to go to Ireland in the 1790s as well to see off one of the imminent French invasions but were delayed. They also made a trip to Scotland. They spent most of the war on the south coast of England, but went on occasion to N.E. England.
You did ask.  ;D  (As well as me being part- Irish this was one of my A level History topics.) Lots more information available.
Soldiers who wanted their wives to accompany them drew lots to decide. Wives were a asset to the regiment. They were laundresses (waging war on lice) and nurses.
You might find your tailor on muster rolls if they survive.
Have you tried "Overseas Births"? I don't know if the register goes back that far.
Cowban

Offline Rosinish

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Re: WYLLIE - Why would a Tailor from Kincardineshire move to Dublin in the 1790s?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 30 August 17 12:06 BST (UK) »
I wonder if Beatie could be a Sis-in-Law or other (relation) rather than a sis?

1851 Household (all same ref. on SP) 250/ 2/ 10 Arbuthnott, Kincardine

WYLLIE ELISABETH 51
WYLLIE BEATIE 41
WYLLIE BEATIE 24

Edit To add, I see Beatie 24 is recorded as Donnate (FS) & Donnat (Freecen) but Wyllie on SP  ::)

A possible 2? (Freereg)

Angus (Forfarshire)

St Vigeans Church Vol Ii, Register entry 211
Beatrix WYLLIE
Baptism 8 May 1809
Abode Burnton
Parents Andrew WYLLIE & Catharine WILLIAMSON

Fordoun Kincardineshire
Fordoun Church
Betty WYLLIE
Birth   15 Dec 1809, Baptism 18 Dec 1809
Abode Glenfarquhar
Parents David WYLLIE & Betty VALENTINE
Father occ. Smith

Annie

South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Liviani

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Re: WYLLIE - Why would a Tailor from Kincardineshire move to Dublin in the 1790s?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 01 September 17 02:52 BST (UK) »
@Maiden Stone

Wow! I really appreciate all of this info. It's been very helpful. It's really helped me understand what was going on at the time and why George and Ann may have moved to Dublin around then. Brilliant, thank you. I have googled about all of this and found it very fascinating.

I haven't had any luck with muster rolls or military records on FindMyPast though sadly, also nothing from newspaper archives.

@Rosinish

Thanks for this. Beatie aged 41 in 1851 is down as unmarried, which lends me to think that she is a sister, though having said this, I haven't seen the original yet and the "u" could be mistaken from an "m". That wouldn't be the first time that's happened. I'm just looking at a transcription. The original will come later for me. Beatie aged 24 is also down as Donnate on FindMyPast.

Beatie aged 41 is down as being born in Arbuthnott which means I'm sceptical if either of the two you mentioned are her. There is another unconnected Wyllie family that live in the St Vigeans area around this time that I keep coming across. Thought I can see Betty born in Fordoun is a possible. My Wyllies do have a connection to this parish and it's interesting that the mother is a Valentine given that Elisabeth's sister Agnes married a Valentine. I think I'll investigate this one and see where it takes me. Though I don't have a David Wyllie or a Betty Valentine in my tree that would match up date-wise. Limited records for all of these people around this time unfortunately.
mtDNA subclade K1b2b. Father's Y-DNA I-S25383
GEDmatch kit; CF7867455
Father's kit; RY1336515
Mother's kit; AF2312865


Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie.
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Elder, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott.
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray, Kennedy, McGregor
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie


Offline Rosinish

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Re: WYLLIE - Why would a Tailor from Kincardineshire move to Dublin in the 1790s?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 01 September 17 05:43 BST (UK) »
Beatie aged 41 in 1851 is down as unmarried, which lends me to think that she is a sister, though having said this, I haven't seen the original yet and the "u" could be mistaken from an "m". The original will come later for me. Beatie aged 24 is also down as Donnate on FindMyPast.

The 'U' could also be be a 'W' if the transcription is wrong...U/W/M can all be written in a way which is hard to tell the difference i.e. room for error in the style of writing of the time.

Annie

Add...I wonder where FindMyPast get there info?

Freecen I believe are very thorough & checked by 2 people i.e. if the SP Index entry is wrong you will be reimbursed & for the price of £1.50 returnable is worth the gamble on the fact that 3 out of 4 all state different from SP a 75% chance of SP (who have the original) have it wrong  ;D
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Flattybasher9

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Re: WYLLIE - Why would a Tailor from Kincardineshire move to Dublin in the 1790s?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 01 September 17 07:45 BST (UK) »
Have you seen :-


Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900 for William Wyllie 
25th Foot Soldiers, 2nd Battalion  
1809-1818   
 
Also listed in :- Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925

Regards

Malky

Offline Liviani

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Re: WYLLIE - Why would a Tailor from Kincardineshire move to Dublin in the 1790s?
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 10 September 17 01:37 BST (UK) »
Have you seen :-


Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900 for William Wyllie 
25th Foot Soldiers, 2nd Battalion  
1809-1818   
 
Also listed in :- Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925

Regards

Malky

I had seen this briefly on a well known site when I had an active subscription but at the time I wasn't looking into this branch very thoroughly. I will investigate this again now that you've reminded me. Many thanks.

@Rosinish

I have got the original image from SP now for the 1851 census. A snippet of which I will attach. The "U"s are definitely "U"s I'd say.  ;D
In other entries on this page, married people are written as "Mar".

But yes, SP have indexed 24 year old Beatie incorrectly. She is definitely a Donnate on the census. What an odd surname, I've never come across this before.

mtDNA subclade K1b2b. Father's Y-DNA I-S25383
GEDmatch kit; CF7867455
Father's kit; RY1336515
Mother's kit; AF2312865


Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie.
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Elder, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott.
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray, Kennedy, McGregor
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie

Offline Rosinish

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Re: WYLLIE - Why would a Tailor from Kincardineshire move to Dublin in the 1790s?
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 10 September 17 03:41 BST (UK) »
Hi Liviani,

Yes, the name to me wasn't a name I'd ever encountered either.

What about this as a bit of a longshot  ???...

I'm thinking on how it would have been pronounced & depending on who was taking the info. how it sounded i.e. how it was written...who knows but to me it wouldn't be impossible...

Donnate (how it sounded to the enumerator) as opposed to Dundey on this baptism  ???

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kp1/

Isobel/Isabel...could that have been interchangeable with Elizabeth/Betty/Batey/Beatie (given accents in that area)  :-\

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Liviani

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Re: WYLLIE - Why would a Tailor from Kincardineshire move to Dublin in the 1790s?
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 10 September 17 04:11 BST (UK) »
Hi Liviani,

Yes, the name to me wasn't a name I'd ever encountered either.

What about this as a bit of a longshot  ???...

I'm thinking on how it would have been pronounced & depending on who was taking the info. how it sounded i.e. how it was written...who knows but to me it wouldn't be impossible...

Donnate (how it sounded to the enumerator) as opposed to Dundey on this baptism  ???

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kp1/

Isobel/Isabel...could that have been interchangeable with Elizabeth/Betty/Batey/Beatie (given accents in that area)  :-\

Annie

I like your thinking Annie.

Although, 24 year old Beatie's place of birth on the census was given as Dundee, Forfarshire as opposed to Kirriemuir on the link you provided. Although, this record isn't entirely impossible as a match. I was thinking more along the lines of these names; Donnie/Donnay/Donnachie or maybe even something as simple as Donald and it's been completely mis-heard/written. This is going to be a tough one to crack I think.  :-\ 

Having said that, in 1851 there is a Grandchild living with the family; James Fyfe aged 1. I feel this is most likely an illegitimate child of 24 year old Beatie. I will see what I can find.

Many thanks for the suggestions, it's given me something to think about.

Jill.
mtDNA subclade K1b2b. Father's Y-DNA I-S25383
GEDmatch kit; CF7867455
Father's kit; RY1336515
Mother's kit; AF2312865


Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie.
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Elder, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott.
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray, Kennedy, McGregor
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie