Author Topic: Baptisms in Paris  (Read 634 times)

Offline Roy G

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Baptisms in Paris
« on: Sunday 03 September 17 13:18 BST (UK) »
Not sure if I am in the right place here, for Rootschat seems to have changed its listings so that I can no longer place my request directly before those who specialize in the records from a specific European country.

So if any of you know how to access French records, I am looking for the following

A Paris baptism between 1852 - 1855 of Jeanne Martyn (Martin) whose parents were English.
I would like to know the date and who those parents were.

Can anyone help?
Regards Roy G


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Offline jorose

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Re: Baptisms in Paris
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 03 September 17 15:25 BST (UK) »
Hi Roy,

We've not changed recently - there have never been specific country entries in Europe. I've moved your post to the "Europe" board as the "Resources" board is only for posting links to information, not queries. As long as you make it clear in the topic name what country/area you're looking for, it should get sufficient attention.

Do you know if Jeanne's family were Catholic or Church of England?
Was she Jeanne Charlotte Martyn who married in Brighton in 1872 - do you know her father's name/occupation?
If her family were only in France briefly she may have been baptised when they returned home, and there may also be an overseas birth certificate for her.
French births from Paris in this period are among those destroyed in a fire in 1870 but there is an index to the "reconstructed" records at the Paris archives:
http://www.archives.paris.fr/r/124/-at-civil-de-paris/
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline Roy G

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Re: Baptisms in Paris
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 03 September 17 17:48 BST (UK) »
Firstly
Thanks for the immediate response and redirecting it to the correct area,

Secondly,.
I am sure the Rootschat set up is different for when I am now advised of a response, clicking the link to the message only takes me to the Rootschat site, not directly to the response itself as it once used to do.   Now I have make a further search of all the recent entries in order to find and then view that response.

OK
You have correctly identified the baptism that I am seeking from the young lady's marriage.  Her father Colonel Francis Mountjoy Martyn is well known to me for he had no occupation and lived off an excessively substantial inheritance from India.  The problem is that the mother of this illegitimate child had to be one of his many mistresses or even a casual female acquaintance.  It was certainly not his wife. 

What I am trying establish is, who was the child's mother, for I have sneaking suspicion she was his  brother's daughter and therefore also from a very wealthy family.  They were in Banking, so also had more than adequate funds.  In fact they held such a high social position that they were easily able to cover up any family indiscretion.   For example, the father of the suspected mother had properties in Paris and owned a substantial nearby vineyard.  Not only that, one of Francis' previous mistresses and mother of another child of his (the Countess of Beauregard) had left him to become the mistress of Napoleon III

Perhaps you can gather from this that all parties were in a position to manipulate or just sanitize the records.

Roy G

Offline jorose

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Re: Baptisms in Paris
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 05 September 17 20:04 BST (UK) »
I'm afraid I don't know about the email notification settings.

Under the circumstances I wouldn't be surprised if they baptised her under another name or perhaps not in Paris at all.

There are some French protestant church records online at familysearch:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1582585
but the only hit is a baptism for John Richard Martyn (b. 1845 Southwark) and his French wife who baptised a daughter in the 1860s (and then seem to have returned back to England)
No obvious "Jeanne Charlotte" entries minus a father, either.

While looking around I found an interesting snippet in a NZ newspaper which mentions the "niece of Mdme Rachel, the famous tragedienne", aka Mrs Crawshaw, also the daughter of the late Colonel Mountjoy-Martin
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/PATM18830418.2.10

If this is true, her mother would be a sister of Rachel Felix:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_F%C3%A9lix

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1891/06/14/page/1/article/more-trouble-for-wales#text
 - this article of 1891 says she was known as "Miss Clive" as an actress, and she was the daughter of Sarah Felix, sister of the famous Rachel, but raised by her father.
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline jorose

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Re: Baptisms in Paris
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 05 September 17 20:40 BST (UK) »
There is a Jeanne Charlotte Elizabeth Felix born 22 October 1853 in the Paris reconstructed records.  Only the indexes are online, unfortunately - the full details would be on microfilm at the archives.
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Roy G

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Re: Baptisms in Paris
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 05 September 17 22:03 BST (UK) »
Thank you so much for your response, which certainly does put the cat amongst the pigeons. 

The birth of a Jeanne Charlotte Felix in 1853 would certainly tie in, but the Felix surname and its connection both the Martyn family and to Napoleon III also opens up new areas of uncertainty to question.

One record I have been told of identified the mother of Captain Francis Mountjoy Martyn (Jeanne's father) as a Madame Marie Felix, whilst another stated she was an Indian lady called Marie who the captain's father was just attached to.  I would need to verify which is correct.

A child of the 'mistress' Felix attached to Napoleon's court with that birth date would certainly seem to be a better fit, but there is another BUT.  It is known that Jeanne Charlotte Martyn was well received into the household of Captain Francis Mountjoy Martyn's niece, and I cannot imagine them offering similar hospitality to a non family member.  So that issue also calls for further investigation.

It'll keep me and a colleague of mine rather busy.

Regards Roy

Offline davidqueneherve

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Re: Baptisms in Paris
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 05 September 17 23:22 BST (UK) »
Hello,

The Electrical Journal - Volume 32 - Page 329
https://books.google.fr/books?id=PnFOAQAAIAAJ - Traduire cette page
1894 - ‎Extraits - ‎Autres Úditions
Mrs. JANE CRAWSHAW, daughter of Colonel Mountjoy Martin, of the 2nd Life Guards, also gave evidence in the same sense. She wished to pay for the treatment, but Mr. Harness declined to take any fee, saying that he had derived great ...

Trifles and Travels - Page 24
https://books.google.fr/books?id=zWBDAAAAIAAJ - Traduire cette page
Arthur Louis Keyser - 1923 - ‎Extraits
I was on the river with that delightf ul and amusing lady, one of my most cherished friendships, Jeanne Crawshaw, whose husband was a well-known steeplechase rider. Her father was Colonel Mount- joy Martin, who had been brother officer

Her husband is may be

Riding Recollections and Turf Stories - Page 281
https://books.google.fr/books?id=MhBDAAAAIAAJ - Traduire cette page
Henry Custance - 1894 - ‎Extraits - ‎Autres Úditions
In those days I used to go over to France to ride for the Duke of Hamilton, and I stayed at Chantilly with Planner, who trained for his Grace. One day we were talking about hunting, and Planner casually said to me : " Why don't you ask the Duke to let you have some of his old steeplechase horses ? ... Happening to see Mr. Peter Crawshaw that day, I told him that I intended to ask the Duke for the old horse.
Baily's Magazine of Sports & Pastimes - Volume 55 - Page 204

The sport of kings - Page 228
https://books.google.fr/books?id=z-YOAAAAQAAJ - Traduire cette page
Ralph Nevill - 1926 - ‎Extraits
Eight horses started, and Sir Quid Pigtail, ridden by an amateur jockey, Mr. Crawshaw, won easily by a length. ... Mr. Crawshaw, well known as " Peter," rode much in France, where he won a number of races for the Duke of Hamilton and other ...

Henry Chaplin: a memoir - Page 78
https://books.google.fr/books?id=1oVmAAAAMAAJ - Traduire cette page
Edith Helen Vane-Tempest-Stewart Londonderry (Marchioness of) - 1926 - ‎Extraits - ‎Autres Úditions
The former is the wife of a little man called Peter Crawshaw, the best gentleman jockey in England, who won many good steeplechases for me when I kept chasers as well as race horses on the flat, and they are the tiniest little couple you ever ...

https://books.google.fr/books?id=sZMbAQAAIAAJ - Traduire cette page
1891 - ‎Extraits - ‎Autres Úditions

The roars of laughter that followed from the occupants of the stand and the study of " Mr. Peter's" face our readers can ... Sir George has much to say on jockeys' riding, and he goes, as most of us probably would, for the infinite superiority of what is ... A correspondent writes that he has been over the Lingfield steeplechase course, which, had it not been for the severe ... With that well-known amateur horseman Mr. Peter Crawshaw as clerk of the course it may be taken for granted that no ...

Offline davidqueneherve

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Offline Roy G

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Re: Baptisms in Paris
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 06 September 17 05:43 BST (UK) »
So much info and so quick.  Thanks everybody.
Here is a brief update.

Jeanne Charlotte Martyn's connections to Peter Crawshaw, France, and her father Francis Mountjoy Martyn are all verified through other researches.  There is even a highly probable connection to the court of Napoleon III through one of her father's and Napoleon's former mistresses.  A horsey connection also comes from that particular mistress (the Countess of Beauregard) who had subsequently married a Captain Clarence Trelawney, but divorced him soon after she found he was squandering her fortune on bloodstock.  All that aside, the problem that I am still trying to solve is which of Jeanne's father's numerous mistresses or conquests was her mother. 

Up until now, my focus has been on what seems to have been a close family tie between Jeanne and her father's niece who was reported to have produced an unregistered (in the UK) illegitimate child about the time that Jeanne was born.  Furthermore, of the many impressive locations open to her (Paris or Marylebone in London) when Jeanne chose to marry Crawshaw, she did so from the niece's family address in Brighton Sussex.

The latest info you have provided me with, has now given me a side interest in Jeanne Charlotte Felix born in Paris 1853, even though the surname Felix does not directly dovetail with my previous research and relates to another of Napoleon's mistresses.  Up until now, the only Felix said to have been in the Martyn family line would have been a Madam Maria that one source said was Jeanne's grandmother.  I now need to contact the provider of that information for this interchange between us makes wonder it they were mistaken.

So that's where I am at present.
I thank you all for your ongoing help, and although many matters have still to be resolved, I much appreciate the info that you are all providing.

Regards Roy G