Author Topic: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area  (Read 3481 times)

Offline Dundee

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Re: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area
« Reply #27 on: Friday 08 September 17 01:39 BST (UK) »
However, the Robert Harold Williams b.1894 who died 17/2/1969 Gosford, NSW shows in Australian Military records for WW2 that he was born 13/4/1894 Cardiff but goes on to state Next of Kin R. Williams (presumably father) but his father was deceased by 1939 and surely his next of kin would have been his wife.

I think the next of kin is wife, Mrs R H Williams
Her husband was dead by 1953 according to the army records

Details of his funeral notice and death registration were posted earlier.

curlytop2, do you have the actual marriage certificate for Robert/Harold WILLIAMS  and Mary THOMAS?  What is his occupation and address and the stated name of his father and his occupation?  Witness names?

Never rely on death certificates to give accurate information.

Debra  :)



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Offline Annette7

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Re: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area
« Reply #28 on: Friday 08 September 17 01:42 BST (UK) »
curtlytop2 - the mother of Melba E. Williams was, as already mentioned, a Gladys C C Williams born 1898 per the 1939 Register so not a Gladys A. born 1896 Pontypridd.   Again, as already stated, she was Gladys Cecilia Constance Jenkins born 1898 Pontypridd.

Her death is registered as Gladys C C Williams bc.1899 died Mar.qtr.1940 Pontypridd.

Now, the sad fact is that there was no Robert Harold Williams born 1894 in Cardiff (or indeed anywhere else).   Nor is there any trace of a Robert or Harold (or any variation thereof) Williams bc.1894 Cardiff that match up with what is given as known on the 2 census' after his birth.  So it is all very strange - perhaps his birth wasn't registered for some reason but that wouldn't account for his absence on census.

However, since you state you know his widowed father Robert married Gladys Jenkins 1917 Pontypridd and that you have a transcript of the marriage details can you please tell us all the exact details that were on the certificate?  The information on this certificate is the only real 'lead' there is at the moment (bearing in mind no RHW birth entry 1894, no sighting on census and only instance of his mother being a Margaret is on his death certificate).

You said earlier that RHW had a brother Hugh who was a few years younger and who was killed in WW1?   When did he die as there various possibilities with this name?

Annette 
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
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Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

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Offline Dundee

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Re: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area
« Reply #29 on: Friday 08 September 17 01:46 BST (UK) »
Certificate of marriage to second wife no help as to name of first wife.

No, but it will give other important information like his age, address, occupation, and witness names.

Debra  :)

Offline curlytop2

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Re: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area
« Reply #30 on: Friday 08 September 17 04:26 BST (UK) »
here I go again .
Dundee : I do not rely on death certs which is why I don't readily accept out of hand that the wife's name is Margaret WILLIAMS. I do have the marriage cert of RHjnr and Mary and I am pretty sure you know most of it : married 1919 Pontypridd ; father Robert a collier ; witness Gladys Williams and Emma Thomas , Mary's sister ;ages 26 and 23 ; RH's address Bryn Villa , Gy....Ar.... is all I can read , Mary from Baptist Sq , Blaenllechau .

Annette7 : I have not searched 39 Register for Melba . All my records for her marriage , life in Canada etc agree with your findings and I know they are correct as my mother corresponded with her and I have family photographs and handwritten cards . I will apply for a marriage certificate for Gladys to confirm things , which takes about 6 weeks to Australia . And I'm sorry , I did use the wrong word , I do not have a transcript for Gladys' marriage , only the Marriage Index 1916-2005 , otherwise I would have passed on  the information.

I have been trying to solve this problem on and off for a couple of years . I was thinking that maybe the best thing might be for some local research .
I am pretty sure of the name Margaret . My sister is called after her .

As for Hugh I have no information other than the little I have already passed on , and yes I have searched census records etc for a likely family , also war records but there are too many Hughs however it is spelled, coupled with Williams . I'm not saying the information is definitely not there , but that I have not found it .

Mary

Offline jonw65

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Re: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area
« Reply #31 on: Friday 08 September 17 08:38 BST (UK) »
Details of his funeral notice and death registration were posted earlier.

I know. That's why I didn't repeat them. I was discussing his army record.

You left out.....
At the moment the earliest sighting of this man seems to be his marriage to Mary Thomas. Which is why the full details from the certificate would be helpful

Offline Annette7

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Re: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area
« Reply #32 on: Friday 08 September 17 08:52 BST (UK) »
curlytop2 - please post the details when you receive the marriage certificate and we can continue to try and help you.

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline josey

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Re: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area
« Reply #33 on: Friday 08 September 17 09:14 BST (UK) »
I had no idea my post would attract such attention
;D ;D we rootschatters love a challenge and are very keen to help get to the bottom of your RHW & his mother. Thanks for all the details. You have obviously already researched a lot.

I agree with the last few posts. Our lateral thinking & investigating what might appear slightly irrelevant side 'actors' in the 'performance' is out of experience that, as others have said, they can reveal details which can lead to the 'main act'. Even negative information can be helpful. We'd certainly be grateful for the details of the 2 Hugh Williams' birth certificates you have obtained so that they can be eliminated.

Josey
Seeking: baptism Philip Murray 1813 nr Chatham Kent, death Ralph James Dunn b 1808 1861 - 1868 in Newington 1861
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Nova Scotia [Halifax, Pictou]: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline jonw65

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Re: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area
« Reply #34 on: Friday 08 September 17 11:19 BST (UK) »
The Australian army record says that he had been a Gunner in the Royal Field Artillery, number 69378
On Image 7
Incidentally, d-o-b on that is 30 April (1896!)

Says served in France, Egypt, Palestine (first image)
So, he should be on the medal rolls
There is a medal index card for Harold Williams, Gnr, RFA, 69378
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kop/

Says 1914 Star retd (deserter)
Edit - and ditto the other two!
John

Offline curlytop2

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Re: Mother's surname for Robert Harold Williams junior b1894 Cardiff area
« Reply #35 on: Friday 08 September 17 12:09 BST (UK) »
Annette I will post details when I receive cert.
Military papers make no reference to mother, that goes for both world wars and he is on the medal rolls . We framed all his medals several years ago.
Josey if I told you I had 2 certs for Hugh Williams I was delusional , I have no concrete information for Hugh . I did have 2 incorrect certs for Robert Harold b1894 (it was common knowledge he changed his birth date to enlist) but in a cleanup threw them out without noting reg numbers.
Thank you everybody , I appreciate both your experience and willingness to help.
Mary