Author Topic: PR Entry help, please  (Read 849 times)

Offline Cas (stallc)

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Re: PR Entry help, please
« Reply #9 on: Friday 08 September 17 15:12 BST (UK) »
Thanks everyone for your help. I'm researching my sister-in-law's family; they're all from the South Wales area and my Welsh is not the best :(

I'm now very curious as to the name of John's father, Florence Frederick. I've never come across Florence as a man's name before, so I'm interested if anyone has any information about the derivation of the name.


David

One possible explanation is on the 1851 it seems he is down as Thomas, born Tuscany (British subject). Maybe got a lot of flack admist the backdrop of a large number of burly miners?

There are a few deaths for children post 1840 for this couple on familysearch.  Mmn John on GRO index.

Also on the wedding banns is transcribed as Florence, but I read it Florans, so it could be a varient.

Cas
Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam
Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts
Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop
Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset
Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs
Baggot, Hurley, Keaveny, Shiel, Flynn - Ireland
Bray - Cornwall

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Offline mezentia

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Re: PR Entry help, please
« Reply #10 on: Friday 08 September 17 18:30 BST (UK) »
Hi Cas

Do you have a reference for the 1851 census? I can't seem to find him there?
Anderson - Leics., Yorks.; Attwood - Worcs., Staffs.,  Salop; Baylis - Worcs.; Beach/Bache - Worcs., Staffs., Salop; Bills - Devon, Worcs.
Dovey - Worcs., Staff., Salop; Gill - Worcs.; Hampton - Worcs., Staffs.; Hancox/Hancocks - Worcs., Staffs.
Hill - Worcs., Staffs., Salop; Sherwood - Worcs., Staffs.; Stonyer - Worcs., Staff., Salop, Essex
Woodall - Worcs., Staffs.; Potter - Essex.

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Offline Cas (stallc)

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Re: PR Entry help, please
« Reply #11 on: Friday 08 September 17 18:49 BST (UK) »
I looked for John, he is the only one in 1851 Merthyr.

His mother is Sarah and sister Margaret...father is Thomas, but dates fit.

Cas
Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam
Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts
Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop
Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset
Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs
Baggot, Hurley, Keaveny, Shiel, Flynn - Ireland
Bray - Cornwall

Offline Cas (stallc)

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Re: PR Entry help, please
« Reply #12 on: Friday 08 September 17 18:53 BST (UK) »
HO107 Piece number   2458/317/49

Margaret marries 1853 father named as Florence.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JV3F-MFJ Margaret

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JV3X-B18 John

Cas
Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam
Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts
Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop
Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset
Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs
Baggot, Hurley, Keaveny, Shiel, Flynn - Ireland
Bray - Cornwall

Offline Cas (stallc)

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Re: PR Entry help, please
« Reply #13 on: Friday 08 September 17 19:18 BST (UK) »
1861 census with Julia. RG09 Piece number 4053 Folio 85 Page number 15.  Florence is b Italy.

Death: FREDERICKS, SARAH    age 49     
GRO Reference: 1857  M Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL  Volume 11A  Page 193       

Marriages Sep Q 1857   
Frederick    Florence        Merthyr Tydfil    11a   523
Keily    Julia        Merthyr Tydfil    11a   523    

Deaths Sep Q 1861   Age 57
Frederick    Florence        Merthyr T    11a   163   

NBI (National Burial Index)
Florance Fredrick
Age   61
Birth year   1800
Burial date   28 Sep 1861
Church   St Tydfil
Denomination   Anglican
Place   Merthyr Tydfil
Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam
Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts
Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop
Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset
Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs
Baggot, Hurley, Keaveny, Shiel, Flynn - Ireland
Bray - Cornwall

Offline mezentia

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Re: PR Entry help, please
« Reply #14 on: Friday 08 September 17 20:59 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the info.

So Florence because that's where he was born? The 51 and 61 census records tell us he was born in Tuscany, Italy.

But then, what would a Welsh family be doing in Italy around 1800? Army, maybe? Were we fighting in Italy at the time? Would families accompany the troops? Would Florence's birth be registered there?

Questions, questions  ;D ;D
Anderson - Leics., Yorks.; Attwood - Worcs., Staffs.,  Salop; Baylis - Worcs.; Beach/Bache - Worcs., Staffs., Salop; Bills - Devon, Worcs.
Dovey - Worcs., Staff., Salop; Gill - Worcs.; Hampton - Worcs., Staffs.; Hancox/Hancocks - Worcs., Staffs.
Hill - Worcs., Staffs., Salop; Sherwood - Worcs., Staffs.; Stonyer - Worcs., Staff., Salop, Essex
Woodall - Worcs., Staffs.; Potter - Essex.

Offline Cas (stallc)

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Re: PR Entry help, please
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 09 September 17 07:23 BST (UK) »
I don't think a Welsh family was in Italy, an Italian was in Wales, maybe with family.  Possibly his name is anglised. Sarah was from Haverfordwest Pembroke, possibly moved with her family or alone to Merthyr and they married in area.

If you wish to maybe find out his father, you could obtain the marriage cert to Julia. As for being registered in Italy, I would think in the time period a bapt would be possible, unlikely any registration.  You would need to ask on 'Other Countries' board, some may know.

http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/ItaliansOfMerthyrTydfil.htm

Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam
Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts
Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop
Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset
Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs
Baggot, Hurley, Keaveny, Shiel, Flynn - Ireland
Bray - Cornwall

Offline mezentia

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Re: PR Entry help, please
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 09 September 17 10:48 BST (UK) »
I would have thought that by now I would have learned to put my brain into gear before dashing off quick replies to posts here. Oy Vay! I had assumed that "British Subject" on Florence's 1851 census entry implied that he was born to British parents in Italy. However, on reflection, the suggestion that he's an Italian immigrant seems much more plausible. Napolean was wreaking havoc on mainland Europe at the time, and as Cas' link shows, there was a substantial influx of Italians in the 19th century from Northern Italy. I think we can therefore infer that Florence's family came to Britain in the first half of the 19th century, and given that he was born in Italy, and married in 1828, the date they arrived is between about 1805 and shortly before 1828. The "British Subject" on the 1851 census entry imples that Florence and possibly his parents, naturalised, and possibly between 1841 and 1851. I'm not sure about the naturalisation process at the time, but there may be records in the London Gazette? I have these for some Jewish members of my tree together with the Anglicanisation (sorry!) of their names.

The hint to get Florence's marriage certigicate for his second marriage I will follow, although his father's name did not appeary on the PR entry for his marriage to Sarah John on Familysearch, nor, indeed, his wife's :( As a result, I'm not confident that the information will appear on the certificate for his second marriage, but it's worth a try. Nevertheless, it is one family legend proved, that my sister-in-law does indeed have an Italian heritage.

David
Anderson - Leics., Yorks.; Attwood - Worcs., Staffs.,  Salop; Baylis - Worcs.; Beach/Bache - Worcs., Staffs., Salop; Bills - Devon, Worcs.
Dovey - Worcs., Staff., Salop; Gill - Worcs.; Hampton - Worcs., Staffs.; Hancox/Hancocks - Worcs., Staffs.
Hill - Worcs., Staffs., Salop; Sherwood - Worcs., Staffs.; Stonyer - Worcs., Staff., Salop, Essex
Woodall - Worcs., Staffs.; Potter - Essex.

Offline Cas (stallc)

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Re: PR Entry help, please
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 09 September 17 10:58 BST (UK) »
Pre registration (1837) parent names were not normally included on marriage. The Glam Marriage index only suggests the marriage included banns, the original banns are online. The marriage is just indexed.

Post 1837 fathers names were normally included, if known.

Cas
Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam
Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts
Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop
Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset
Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs
Baggot, Hurley, Keaveny, Shiel, Flynn - Ireland
Bray - Cornwall