NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter

[nowornever]

Hey all you kind people...
Your'e on a roll now. I am about to answer you
Pauline

[Aussie1947]

1861 England Census.
Willenhall, Staffordshire.

Thomas Lockley, head, 49
Sarah Lockley, wife, 47.
Thomas Lockley, 21, son, um, locksmith.
George Lockey, 19, son, um.
Samuel, Lockley, 15, son, um.
Joseph Lockley, 10, son.
Henry Lockley, 7, son.

Gerry

[Aussie1947]

Maybe Thomas's parents looking after his son while he was serving his sentence in WA.

!871 England Census.
Willenhall, Staffordshire.

Thomas Lockley, head, 59.
Sarah Lockley, wife, 57.
Joseph Lockley, son, 20, um.
Henry Lockley, son, 17, um.
Edward Lockley, grandson, 8, scholar, born, Willenhall.


Gerry

[Aussie1947]

An Edward Lockley, 9 died in 1872

September Quarter 1872, 6B/311, District Wolverhampton which includes the Parish of Willenhall.

Gerry

[nowornever]

Just when I think that the hundreds of hours (6 obsessive years) I have spent on this person, and that I have answered most questions, you amazing people turn up with more proof/confirmation that has escaped me. I'll try to answer /respond to you all. Might have to do it in more than 1 post Got my files out...let's go

Jamjar:- the following evidence might answer some of your doubts? Hope so.
But mainly here to : -
Gerry:

"as a young     married     man he came to Aust..."  Not strictly true. As seen on the Cuzco passenger list he travelled alone. His wife remained here - but has been a thorn in my side trying to find her. In last few days I think I M-I-G-H-T be onto something. Will see.  It was Sarah Cooper and they did marry in 1862.  ( Have Marriage Cert )They actually had 2 children- one was only 2 weeks old when Thomas was arrested. I only found this out by staying in London twice, to visit the Nat Archives and studying all the prison records, some years ago. Sadly I discovered that the baby died at 9 months, starvation, before he sailed. Have birth/death certs     (So, Jamjar, that explains one of your issues. He had 2 children originally which were recorded on prisonrecords. Threw me too for a while)
His son, Edward, does appear to be with the grandparents in 1871 and I have his birth & death(@9 yrs) certs. So Thomas lost both.
However, what matters is that IF a partner was transported for more than 7 yrs then the remaining partner was free to remarry. I think there is a similar law in existence today (but not for "transportation"!) |So when Thomas met up with Ellen and stated he was a widower- I did get that Marriage cert also- I believe him. Why would he lie and risk everything? I can't explain how I have ended up second guessing some things that became factual. Even before I knew the crime I knew it was the result of a drunken brawl and can prove that. Really weird.Anyone know what I mean? (concentrate a bit longer Jamjar)
PARDONS:- Jamjar & Gerry
Regarding "not being a life sentence"  & free to leave Aust.  My understanding, after copious amounts of reading up on the subject (try "The Fatal Shore"- amazing) is that convicts were generally not allowed to leave Aust , even after completing their sentences.
CONDITIONAL = were now free men/women but had to remain in Australia
ABSOLUTE = free and able to return to their native country- or anywhere. Not that many granted in comparision to Conditional.  I'm happy to be corrected but would ask - why 2 different pardons?

Yes Gerry Those are the correct Census' for the family. He was a locksmith but they didn't require those skills in prison. Wonder why? Think he became a blacksmith at first. In Willenhall, his home town,  about 3 years ago, there was a new memorial to the old locksmiths of the town made and I had an engraved brick put there stating he had died in Sydney.
 And, yes, I would love you to walk me through those old Parish Maps
Hope I've answered all your queries and thank you again. Now for post no:2...
Pauline

[nowornever]

Ros: you've done it again with your "property search" I haven't had time to study it yet ( have you seen the responses I have to answer?) But I appreciate your kick-starting this mission of mine and going to all the trouble you have. I hope my latest posts will clear more things up for you. Just need the relatives to step forward now...

Majm
I am not sure how to confirm that he was the same chap that had been transported to Western Australia under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878. 

Ans Queensland informed me of his leave date, his Ticket of Leave date and his CONVICT NUMBER. This number remains with him from the voyage out, during his sentence and when he departs.

  I cannot see why he would have needed any Absolute Pardon or even a Conditional Pardon to travel to London in January 1878.
Ans;Please see what I replied toGerry / Jamjar
 
 

As he died in New South Wales, I would hope his death certificate provides some information about his origins,
Ans : Dont have his death cert but death records on Ancestry state his correct mother & father

....... and his marriage to Sarah, and the child of that marriage.
Sarah did not go to Aus, and the children had pre-decease  him by 40 years

I am concerned that the dots perhaps are not yet joining up between the Thomas transported in 1865 to Western Australia  and the Thomas dying in 1925 in Lewisham, New South Wales.

Ans: I can't answer that for you but I am convinced that it is one & the same man. I have dotted as many "i"'s as possible, spent years on this, got just about every cert to confirm each stage, am surrounded by files on the family etc.   I have NO doubts.

[rosball]

It's certainly an interesting search Pauline 

We'll see what Thomas deceased estate file shows - usually not much family or background info on deceased estate files, mostly details of assets and debts.   But you never know there could be some clues.

(And yes I'll photograph probate packet for Frederic and Ellen)

Ros

adding : there is a gap in the online indexes for probate packets on NSW SRO between 1891 and 1927 so there is possibly a probate packet for Thomas except there is a note on his deceased estate file that no probate was granted.   Still worth a shot - I can check the microfiche index to see if there is a probate packet and photograph it if is there.

[majm]

.....
Majm

There is a Thos. LOCKLEY, male, English, aged 43, a Farmer, listed on a PROV passenger list for Cuzco, from London, arriving Oct 1879, contracted to land Sydney New South Wales.
How did you know he was "contracted to 

I know this because it is information recorded on the PROV passenger list for the vessel.   PROV is the Public Record Office of Victoria.  The PROV currently has a commercial partnership with several family history websites, and at least one has uploaded the Cuzco passenger list available via PROV. 


   I am interested in learning how you know that the chap who married in 1891 is your relative.     

Re Absolute Pardon and Conditional Pardon.

Regarding "not being a life sentence"  & free to leave Aust.  My understanding, after copious amounts of reading up on the subject (try "The Fatal Shore"- amazing) is that convicts were generally not allowed to leave Aust , even after completing their sentences.
CONDITIONAL = were now free men/women but had to remain in Australia
ABSOLUTE = free and able to return to their native country- or anywhere. Not that many granted in comparision to Conditional.  I'm happy to be corrected but would ask - why 2 different pardons?

Yes, I have read The Fatal Shore.  There are many other reliable reference books.   A Conditional Pardon was simply that .... a pardon with conditions.   The usual condition imposed was to restrict the holder from returning to the country where they were tried, so usually restricting them from returning to Britain.   It did not stop them from moving to any other country, nor did it restrict them from moving between the various British colonies that became Australia when they were federated in 1901. 

Do you have any reason to believe the chap transported to WA in 1865 was issued with either a Conditional Pardon or an Absolute Pardon?    I can see a Conditional Release was noted on the records, but I have not found any mention of a Pardon.    I am quite sure that he did not need any type of Pardon once he had completed his sentence and was thereby emancipated.  He had quite a number of years as a free man before travelling to London in 1878.  Convictism had ceased for WA back ten years earlier.   

I do agree that his marriage to Sarah was effectively terminated on being transported, so she was free to marry someone else as early as 1865, and I do agree the clergy in the Australian colonies at least, well understood this and many a marriage is recorded using the word widow or widower.   I have written about that aspect many times here at RChat, so too have others.

I can see that there's several chaps in NSW named Thomas LOCKLEY in the 'right' timeframe for the chap arriving in 1879. 

Are you related to the chap who was transported in 1865?   I have other information available for the couple I noted on the 1902 electoral roll, but I cannot see how you have confirmed he is the same chap transported to WA in 1865.

NSW Electoral Roll 1902  HUME, polling at Illabo
Ellen Alice LOCKEY (JM confirms that is yes, that’s the spelling on the roll ),  Illabo, Bethungra Park, domestic duties
Thomas LOCKLEY, Illabo, Bethungra Park, farmer.

JM

[majm]

Hi

I see you have now struck through the words 'How did you know he was 'contracted to' ... I am not sure why, but I am sure my answer will be helpful to others following the thread.   

JM