NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter

[nowornever]

Sorry Majm  and everyone

I have been replying to you all for 12 hours now. Obviously the posts have been too lengthy  for the system to cope with and it has crashed loosing most. Sorry JamJar. Will try again

In answer to Majm:
 I tried to include your quote, but as I didn't need to respond to all of the content, I thought it would be simple to delete parts of it. As you can see it did not delete any and this is probably why my post became too large and went into cyber space. Who knows

I struck through "How did you know..." because I originally read it to mean he was contracted to RECEIVE land. That's why I was about to ask how you discovered he was arriving to some acres (of land) Then I realised it was a bit ambiguous and actually meant that he expected to land at Sydney.

I believed that I had deleted it before posting but obviously not all of it.
 Hope that explains it
P

[Jamjar]

I believe your lengthy reply re: convict status should have been directed to JM, not Jamjar. 

J.

[majm]

Hi,

You have now modified this post again.   

Ros: you've done it again with your "property search" I haven't had time to study it yet ( have you seen the responses I have to answer?) But I appreciate your kick-starting this mission of mine and going to all the trouble you have. I hope my latest posts will clear more things up for you. Just need the relatives to step forward now...

Majm
I am not sure how to confirm that he was the same chap that had been transported to Western Australia under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878. 

Ans Queensland informed me of his leave date, his Ticket of Leave date and his CONVICT NUMBER. This number remains with him from the voyage out, during his sentence and when he departs.

  I cannot see why he would have needed any Absolute Pardon or even a Conditional Pardon to travel to London in January 1878.
Ans;Please see what I replied toGerry / Jamjar
 
 

As he died in New South Wales, I would hope his death certificate provides some information about his origins,
Ans : Dont have his death cert but death records on Ancestry state his correct mother & father

....... and his marriage to Sarah, and the child of that marriage.
Sarah did not go to Aus, and the children had pre-decease  him by 40 years

I am concerned that the dots perhaps are not yet joining up between the Thomas transported in 1865 to Western Australia  and the Thomas dying in 1925 in Lewisham, New South Wales.

Ans: I can't answer that for you but I am convinced that it is one & the same man. I have dotted as many "i"'s as possible, spent years on this, got just about every cert to confirm each stage, am surrounded by files on the family etc.   I have NO doubts.

I am pleased you have NO doubts, and to me, it is fine for each family history buff to have their own standards for compiling their own family tree.  My concerns are when any family history buff seeks to share their own tree with others, particularly when seeking to find living descendants .... the research needs to be validated, and I cannot see how you have validated any connection between the 1865 convict and the 1879 passenger (and for that matter, the 1891 marriage)

Replying to each of your comments:
....... and his marriage to Sarah, and the child of that marriage.
Sarah did not go to Aus, and the children had pre-decease  him by 40 years

No-one has mentioned/suggested that Sarah came to Australia  but that does not preclude information about Sarah or their children from being noted on the death certificate.  It depends on the reliability of the informer.   

As he died in New South Wales, I would hope his death certificate provides some information about his origins,
Ans : Dont have his death cert but death records on Ancestry state his correct mother & father 

Death records on Ancestry .... ummm....  are you referring to the compiled INDEX on Ancestry ...  What maiden name does it show?   The NSW BDM online index is free to search and available here:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx  Don't order the document just yet, it may be in the paperwork available from the NSW State Archives.  Ros has offered to photograph the file for you.


  I cannot see why he would have needed any Absolute Pardon or even a Conditional Pardon to travel to London in January 1878.
Ans;Please see what I replied toGerry / Jamjar

I had already read your reply to Gerry and Jamjar before I typed up my reply explaining about Pardons.   He did not need any Pardon to leave WA or travel to London in 1878.  He was emancipated. 

I am not sure how to confirm that he was the same chap that had been transported to Western Australia under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878. 

Ans Queensland informed me of his leave date, his Ticket of Leave date and his CONVICT NUMBER. This number remains with him from the voyage out, during his sentence and when he departs.

Please, please, please note that the paragraph immediately before the one in that post reads:

There is a Thos. LOCKLEY, male, English, aged 43, a Farmer, listed on a PROV passenger list for Cuzco, from London, arriving Oct 1879, contracted to land Sydney New South Wales.

I am not sure how to confirm that he was the same chap that had been transported to Western Australia under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878. 
....

Yes, I am aware of how the numbering system worked in the convict system, and I cannot fathom how you have mis-understood my words.  I am clearly asking about the convict transported to WA under an eight year sentence in 1865 and who went to London in January 1878 AND HOW you match him up with the chap who came as a passenger in 1879 ... 

Hopefully this has cleared up some confusions.

JM

[majm]

So, back on track 

May I please learn how you know you are descended from the chap who was transported to Western Australia in 1865.

JM

[majm]

..... |So when Thomas met up with Ellen and stated he was a widower- I did get that Marriage cert also- I believe him. Why would he lie and risk everything? I can't explain how I have ended up second guessing some things that became factual. Even before I knew the crime I knew it was the result of a drunken brawl and can prove that. Really weird.Anyone know what I mean? (concentrate a bit longer Jamjar)
PARDONS:- Jamjar & Gerry
Regarding "not being a life sentence"  & free to leave Aust.  My understanding, after copious amounts of reading up on the subject (try "The Fatal Shore"- amazing) is that convicts were generally not allowed to leave Aust , even after completing their sentences.
CONDITIONAL = were now free men/women but had to remain in Australia
ABSOLUTE = free and able to return to their native country- or anywhere. Not that many granted in comparision to Conditional.  I'm happy to be corrected but would ask - why 2 different pardons?
....

Please may I ask you to share all the information on that 1891 marriage certificate. 

JM

[Aussie1947]

Hi,

Thomas Lockley had a 40 acre Conditional Purchase block in the Parish of Boree, County of Clarendon.

To view this you will need to visit here  and if you want to go ahead agree to the terms.

Search under NSW Parish Maps and this site should come up "Parish and Historical Maps"

Once there go down "Historic Land Records Viewer" and enter.

An image viewer should come up on the right hand side, in the keyword type Boree and in the box underneath have Historic Parish Maps only ticked it will make things easier.

Get results and find the 1889 Parish of Boree, County of Clarendon Map and open it.  Sometimes there are a number of pages of maps with different dates.

The 40 acre block you will be looking for is in the top right hand corner P135 surrounded by larger portions 154, 132, 124 and 155, blow up the map using the + magnifying glass (click and drag)  and move around using the hand, (click and hold) can take a bit of practice.

Find the block.  T. Lockley, CP 95.8, 40 acres.

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/conditional-purchase-crown-land-guide.

He had other CPs as well around the place as well and these would show up in the newspapers, he had a dispute over a large CP in the Parish of Ivor, County of Clarendon where he had to share 600 acres with Mr Barnes.  This CP does appear on the maps but not under his name but you can still identify it.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/145409487?searchTerm=

Mr George Butt and Thomas had both applied for this CP in 1908 also in the Parish of Ivor.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/145415059?searchTerm=

Another CP application in 1891 in the Parish of Billabung (not Billabong), County of Clarendon, dont know if Thomas was granted this as the maps show George Osborne.

Gerry

[nowornever]

Majm

This time I wont make the replies too lengthy j.i.c. I loose it all.

The Cuzco. There were records showing Thomas left on this ship on Ancestry. He certainly did not remain here for the 1881 census. He had left for Sydney.
 In order to find him after he disappeared after his marriage , and not knowing about the trial at that point, I checked every Thomas in this country and there were many. None convinced me. Next I had to look at the possibility that it was he who was mentioned on Ancestry's criminal records- something I had ignored.
This led to visits to Kew to read his prison records, none of which were on line at that time-next of kin etc matched. His brother George, also sentenced, was also checked out. Of course George had also disappeared. I found scribbled messages on the back of official documents naming his mother at the inquest. I found things at Kew that are not on line proving I have the right person. The newspapers were full of the story. I have another file full of their reports from Land's End to the tip of Scotland. They had a field day as we say and their reports contain proof of names, addresses' locations etc. Absolutely no doubt.

Incidentally I also discovered the ship he left Freemantle on even though there were no records available.
 I know that the lists have only just been released, or to be more accurate I only saw confirmation, of what I had already worked out, a month ago and I whooped with joy. I had spent forever tracking the ships in the area and as anyone will appreciate there were more ships then than there are planes in the sky. Another folder full of shipping info. I narrowed it down to two wool ships, the Helena Mena and Charlotte Padbury, believing it to be the later. Years later it turns out it was the Charlotte Padbury.

Believe me when I say I want as much evidence as there is out there.
Leave it at that. Will look at your next query
Pauline

[majm]

Here are the headings on a 1891 NSW marriage certificate

Date and place of marriage (two columns under this, the one to the left will often have a number.  That’s usually the local number allocated by the local BDM registrar, ie the line number in the local register ledger)

Names and surnames of the parties

Conjugal status

Birthplace  (Column 5) (sometimes needs two different registers to obtain the locality rather than just the county/country)


Married in the

According to the rites of

Usual Occupation 

Age  (Column 7)

Usual place of residence

Father’s name
Mother’s name and maiden name  (Column 9)

Father’s occupation (Column 10)

Signatures (or mark) of the Groom and the bride (often in same handwriting as the clergyman)
Witness signatures (also often in clergyman’s hand)


In the blank column to the immediate right of column 10 there should be a stamp with handwritten info provided.  Stamp reads
“Particulars in Columns
……………………………………  (usually handwriting will read 5, 7, 9, 10)
Obtained from
Church Register
No.
…………………………….. (sometimes up to FIVE different registers are numbered here)
……………………………… (the signature of the senior officer of the NSW BDM validating the information SHOULD appear here)
Deputy Registrar General
Sydney.
…………………………………. (Date of his signature)
…………………………………… (additional initials/numbers from NSW BDM officials)

I recall he could read and write, so he should have signed the 1891 and 1862 registers. 

JM

[majm]

Here is a pdf (106 pages) about researching convicts in Western Australia.
http://www.friendsofbattyelibrary.org.au/PDF/Convict%20Records%20of%20Western%20Australia.pdf

I may well be wrong, but my recollection of Robert Hughes epic (The Fatal Shore) concentrated much more on the convict system in New South Wales/Norfolk Island Van Diemens Land and in the years 1788-1850s with more than 150,000 convicts rather than the Western Australia system 1850-1868 and less than 10,000 convicts. 

JM