Author Topic: Confused by Southwark parishes  (Read 936 times)

Offline Jill Eaton

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Confused by Southwark parishes
« on: Sunday 08 October 17 16:52 BST (UK) »
I have an ancestor born on 4th October 1871 at

The Union Workhouse St Saviour Southwark.
Registration district St Olave Southwark
sub district St John Horslydown

Her name was Mary Ann Lane. She was illegitimate and born to a mother called Hannah Lane.

I visited The Metropolitan Archives some years back looking for admission and discharge records - for Hannah, and Creed registers for Mary Ann

I couldn't find anything ??? ::)

Now I'm wondering if I was looking at the incorrect records. I did email them before my visit and told them what I was looking for. They didn't have records for this workhouse for this date.

However, it occurs to me that Mary Ann (who can't be found on the 1881 census) and Hannah (who may have married or may even have died when Mary Ann was young) may have been living anywhere in the Southwark area.

What confuses me is what counts as "Southwark"? is it Lambeth and Bermondsey and Camberwell? By the time Mary Ann Lane married in 1890 she was living at Barlow Street and married at St Mary Magdalene, Southwark.

On the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census' Mary Ann's place of birth is given as Rotherhithe. Is the Union workhouse, St saviour Southwark in Rotherhithe? if it isn't then she may have memories of living in Rotherhithe but not actually been born there.

Hannah could have come from anywhere but I've tried looking for a possible on the 1871 census simply because it was only a few months before Mary Ann's birth. I've put "Southwark" in the search parameters and come up with several possible hits. They tend to be in the Lambeth and Camberwell areas. Would they be close enough to the Union Workhouse for Hannah to be admitted there to have her child?

Not knowing the area it makes it difficult to know what is a reasonable search area.

Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline BumbleB

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,884
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Confused by Southwark parishes
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 08 October 17 16:56 BST (UK) »
Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
Milner - WRY
Appleyard - WRY

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Jill Eaton

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Confused by Southwark parishes
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 08 October 17 17:08 BST (UK) »
This may help you:

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Southwark/

It does have some useful information and particularly the link to the Mitcham School as I've wondered if Mary was sent to such an establishment being fatherless. I will check the 1881 census to see if she was sent there.
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline Bookbox

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,219
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Confused by Southwark parishes
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 08 October 17 18:52 BST (UK) »
The birth of Mary Ann Lane was registered in St Olave Southwark, so in 1871 you would expect it to have been at the Parish Street workhouse. You were informed correctly that there are no Admission/Discharge or Creed Registers for that workhouse at that date.

But it is puzzling that you say the birth certificate also mentions St Saviourís. In 1869 the St Saviourís Union took over St George the Martyr and Newington poor law unions, and later it became the Southwark Union. But it was always separate from St Olave, which later became the Bermondsey Union.

St Saviour's did have several branch workhouses, but I wasnít aware of one in St Olave.

Just for clarification, would you be able to take another look at the birth certificate please, and post exactly what is written in Column 1 (ĎWhen and where borní)? Maybe we can help further?

Offline Jill Eaton

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Confused by Southwark parishes
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 08 October 17 19:11 BST (UK) »
I've attached a copy
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline KGarrad

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,439
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Confused by Southwark parishes
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 08 October 17 19:23 BST (UK) »
From the certificate, the registration district is St Olave, Southwark. sub-district St John, Horslydown.

Where born is shown as Union Workhouse.
Residence of informant is shown as Union Workhouse, St John's, Southwark.

Where does it say St Saviour?
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Bookbox

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,219
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Confused by Southwark parishes
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 08 October 17 19:32 BST (UK) »
Thanks for posting it. So no mention at all of St Saviourís.

As the sub-district is St John Horselydown, it was surely the Parish Street workhouse. So you did look in the right place previously, but there are no records, unfortunately.

For what itís worth, the relevant information about Parish Street is here ...
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/StOlave/#Post-1834

Map here (top right corner). The workhouse was in the same block as the church.
http://london1868.com/weller56.htm




Offline Jill Eaton

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Confused by Southwark parishes
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 08 October 17 20:07 BST (UK) »
Thanks. It was only seeing it blown up on the screen that I see it says St Johns Southwark. I have quite literally been reading it as St Saviours all this time  :o ::) :'(
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline Jill Eaton

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Confused by Southwark parishes
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 08 October 17 20:42 BST (UK) »
I've had a look at the link for the Parish Street workhouse and there is no mention of a chapel in the workhouse. So would baptisms, always assuming they weren't non-conformist, have been held at St John's Church next door?
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire