Author Topic: Papists in the 18th century  (Read 2293 times)

Offline Andrew Tarr

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Papists in the 18th century
« on: Monday 09 October 17 17:22 BST (UK) »
While transcribing baptisms for Formby church I have come across a strange footnote saying that some children's names 'cd. not be procured being papists'.  Why would that have been?
Tarr, Tydeman, Liversidge, Bartlett, Young

Offline BumbleB

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Re: Papists in the 18th century
« Reply #1 on: Monday 09 October 17 17:32 BST (UK) »
How interesting, and strange.  :-\  Why, if you feel the need to have your child baptised, would you not be willing to have the name recorded?

They do say "there's nowt so queer as folk"  ;D 
Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
If you don't ask the question, you won't get an answer.
He/she who never made a mistake, never made anything.
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
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Appleyard - WRY

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Papists in the 18th century
« Reply #2 on: Monday 09 October 17 21:54 BST (UK) »
Presumably the parents did not attend the Church of England! or had the kids christened by an RC priest!

Skoosh.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Papists in the 18th century
« Reply #3 on: Monday 09 October 17 22:14 BST (UK) »
What year was it? There were 2 periods in 18thC when British Govt. imposed taxes on births, marriages and burials. In both cases it was to raise funds for a war: The War of Spanish Succession, which ended in 1713, with Britain acquiring Gibraltar, and The American War of Independence. I think the debt for the latter was still being paid in the 1790s, by which time Britain was at war with France.
Anglican clergy were responsible for collecting the taxes in their parish. Therefore they had to know about and record the birth of every child, regardless of religious affiliation. Some are recorded in the baptism register as births, some as baptisms. Babies born to my R.C. ancestors in Lytham were recorded in St. Cuthbert C. of E. baptism register as late as 1790s but were baptised at St. Peter R.C. Mission. St. Peter's register began in early 1750s. My 4xGGPs had 13 children; their baptism records take up several pages on Ancestry.
Paupers were exempt from these taxes, so if "poor" or "pauper" was written next to an entry in register it meant the tax hadn't been collected from that person. The tax was low but unpopular. Single men over a certain age and men who remained widowers for too long were also taxed.
There were other times in 18thC when births of children of Recusants were recorded in parish registers. Vicar of Kirkham in Lancashire kept a separate list in early years of century. Some other parishes seemed to lump them in with rest of children in chronological order.
Cowban


Offline hurworth

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Re: Papists in the 18th century
« Reply #4 on: Monday 09 October 17 22:27 BST (UK) »
Thank you for the detailed explanation Maiden Stone.  I did wonder why pauper was written next to the baptism of an ancestor's older brother.

There's an 18th century entry at Ingatestone for a child of Lord Petre (recusant family) where the minister has written something along the lines that he has been reliably informed that the child was born on a particular day and was baptised the following day.  It didn't say who performed the baptism. 

I think single men paid a higher rate of servant tax in Scotland in the late 18th century.

Offline Andrew Tarr

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Re: Papists in the 18th century
« Reply #5 on: Monday 09 October 17 23:11 BST (UK) »
What year was it? There were 2 periods in 18thC when British Govt. imposed taxes on births, marriages and burials.

This example was from 1763, so before the American War IIRC.  This Formby register covers 1710 to 1813, and (equally interesting) in 1808-10 baptisms are divided into Roman Catholic on the right-hand page and (presumably) C of E on the left.  Presumably there was no Catholic church at the time, though there was an R-C chapel by 1848.

I wondered whether ministers were obliged to baptise on demand, though perhaps with a certain lack of enthusiasm for those of the wrong persuasion.
Tarr, Tydeman, Liversidge, Bartlett, Young

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Papists in the 18th century
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 10 October 17 04:21 BST (UK) »
Our Lady of Compassion R.C. Church was founded 1796. Baptism & burial registers from 1796 and marriages from 1797 are at Lancashire Record Office, according to GEN UKI. There would have been a Catholic mission long before then, so Catholics in Formby  would have been baptised and perhaps married by priests without the ceremonies being recorded.  Formby didn't really take to the Reformation. I came across a list of priests but didn't take a note.
I've had a look at St. Peter's registers on LAN OPC. There were several unnamed children of William Formby and of John and Joseph Rymmer in the baptism register of 1760s. Perhaps they regarded it as a minor act of defiance not to give the names of their children to the vicar. Have you come across baptisms of William Rymmer, Jan 1764 and James, Oct. 1765, father of both was John. According to a note on LAN OPC the word "rarity" was written after surname. This may be a place, but I wondered if it was a comment on John Rymmer's infrequent visits to church. There were a lot of Rymmers in Formby as you'll notice.
For each of the years 1797-1800 there's a list of Catholic baptisms (or births) after the C. of E. ones. Not for 1801, '02, '03 etc. Puzzling that they started again 1808-1810.
There's a question on this topic on Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS forum. Thread name is Parish Register - St. Peter's, Formby. The questioner found his Catholic ancestor in the register in 1780s.
https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB3/vewtopic.php?f=2&t=14993

St. Michael, Kirkham, Lancs. has lists of Births of Children of Recusants for several years in the 1st decade and later in 18thC. The transcription on LAN OPC for the baptism register 1776-1800 has this note at the top of each run of years: "This register contains 3 batches of Catholic/Recusant children. It is unclear whether the 2nd batch is births or baptisms. For the purpose of this transcription they have been entered as baptisms." It was so unclear I couldn't find them. I didn't delve into St. Michaels' 1760s register.

My Lytham Catholic families and their associates took up a lot of space in St. Cuthbert's C. of E. Baptism register for most of the 18th century until the start of 19th. Lytham, like Formby had a high proportion of inhabitants who kept to the old faith. The format at St. Cuthbert's was to record a Catholic child as a "Birth" in the baptism register. It wasn't consistent though. I've noticed lot of Catholic children recorded as "Baptism". 2 versions of the register from 1750s survive. Some  entries which were "Births" in one were "Baptisms" in the other. Recording of Births accounted for between 1/3 and 1/2 of entries for most of  1760s. "Pap" was written beneath birth entries for a few years in 1770s. The earliest birth entries I saw in St. Cuthbert's register was middle of 1698. (after Protestant William of Orange took the British Crown from Catholic King James and James tried to get it back; cue rising in Scotland and war in Ireland.) There were 9 children; I recognised 4 of them immediately as R.C. So then the listing of names was to control a dissident element in the land.

The 1760s recordings may have been early preparation for the Papists' Returns. Or maybe some clergy were busybodies.  ;D

The tax laws I mentioned in my previous post were:
 1.Marriage Duty/Registration Tax, abolished 1706. 
2. Stamp Duty Tax 1783-1794.
 The 1st taxed births (not baptisms), marriages and burials, childless widowers and bachelors over 25. The rate was 2 shillings (10 modern pence) to register a birth, 2 shillings and sixpence, half-a-crown in old money, for a marriage and 4 shillings for a burial. Some clergy compiled lists of residents. Some parents tried to avoid the birth tax by not registering births of their children. A seeming increase in twins in the years immediately after 1706 may have been their tax-evading parents catching up with a back-log of baptisms.   
Stamp Duty Tax was similar to the earlier tax. Again, some parents didn't register births.
See The Gen Guide - Marriage Duty Act/Registration Tax (Parish Records & Tax Records)
https://www.genguide.co.uk/source/marriage-duty-actregistration-tax-parish-records-amp-tax-records/184

I had a quick read of "Formby Families of Formby", it's only 3 pages. tsgf.pbworks.com/f/Formby.pdf

Cowban

Offline Andrew Tarr

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Re: Papists in the 18th century
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 10 October 17 09:40 BST (UK) »
Many thanks for all that, MS.  I am fairly sure that Rarity is an Abode used to distinguish the multifarious Rymmers, which at times seemed to synchronise their births - one page I transcribed had 6 Rymmers among only 9 children!  Several other Rymmers had such identifiers.  I guess that if Rarity had been a comment it might have been attached to more than one family.

LATER - So far I have found ten references to Rarity, all to either John or William Rymmer, so it looks like a residence to me - albeit slightly unusual.

It is interesting to look at the 1849 OS map of the area, finding many of the family names from the register against farms, especially around Altcar.  None named Rarity, unfortunately.
Tarr, Tydeman, Liversidge, Bartlett, Young

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: Papists in the 18th century
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 10 October 17 14:08 BST (UK) »
I wondered whether ministers were obliged to baptise on demand, though perhaps with a certain lack of enthusiasm for those of the wrong persuasion.

It would be a contravention of Ecclesiastical Law if baptism was refused.
The Church of England Canon 68:
"No minister shall refuse or delay to christen any child, according to the form of the Book of Common Prayer, that is brought to him upon Sundays or holy days to be christened (convenient warning being given him thereof before) in such manner and form as is prescribed in the Book of Common Prayer; and if he shall refuse to christen he shall be suspended by the bishop of the diocese from his ministry by the space of three months”

Stan
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