Author Topic: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia  (Read 537 times)

Offline John McElroy

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Re: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 11 October 17 12:32 BST (UK) »
Thanks Wivenhoe,
Yep you found in 5 minutes that took me months :)
Mary “Molly” Halls born about 1833 Radwinter, Essex, England, Great Britain - daughter of Abraham & Sarah (or Rebecca) Saville, the girls sent to colony out of the poor house - Mary died. 1901 in Lilydale, Yarra valley, at 68 yrs.--she could read & write.---sister to Emma Halls married Jacobs.
5 of the last 6 of the children were to an Aboriginal woman named "Alice"---although all are claimed as  Mary Halls as the mother I assume without her knowledge (assumed done so, so Charles could get a Beer Lic., living with blacks was not helpful in that sort of application).
My hurdle is finding out about Charles prior to 1853 ?

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Online Galium

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Re: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 11 October 17 14:06 BST (UK) »
Using the available online records for Oxfordshire, I can't see a Charles Trinder baptised during the years 1810-1830 who has parents named James and Rachel.  Neither can I see a likely marriage of a James Trinder to a Rachel.

The Charles Trinder who was transported in 1847 was recorded as aged 30 at the time of his conviction.  There is one tree on Ancestry which includes this man.  It shows him as having died at Launceston, Tasmania in 1859.

Someone you might consider is a Charles West. He was baptised at Hanborough on 13 November 1825, the son of James West (labourer) and Rachel.
James West married Rachel Trinder at Hanborough in 1824 (Ancestry has banns, but not marriages for Hanborough at this time).

This couple also baptised children named James (1827), Mark (1828), Rose (1830), Eli (1833), and Rosanna (1836).

Things did not go well for this family. Rachel died in 1838, and in 1841 I can find one of their children (Eli) in Witney Union workhouse, and another (Mark) in prison, aged 12.  I haven't found Charles as yet.

However in 1844 a man named Charles West was convicted at Oxford Quarter sessions of stealing a quart jug and a quart cup. From the Oxford University and City Herald 2 March 1844:
West, the prisoner, behaved very indecorously in the Court.  During the examination of the principal witness....he endeavoured to cast off one of his boots, to throw it at her head; and when called upon for his defence, he threatened to kill her.

He was sentenced to seven years transportation on 27 February.  The criminal register records his age as 18 (so likely born 1825).  He shows up in the transportation registers as travelling on the Maria Somes.

Of course this isn't enough evidence as it stands, but might be worth pursuing
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Online Dundee

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Re: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 11 October 17 14:48 BST (UK) »

Offline Daisypetal

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Re: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 11 October 17 18:27 BST (UK) »
Hi,

Searching Trove there seems to be a lot of mentions of the 96th regt. going to Australia, starting in 1839. They seem to go on quite a few different ships, the first one I can see arriving in Sydney is the Barossa in Dec 1839.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/?q=


I've found this article that mentions the British Sovereign with some of the 96th aboard arriving at Hobart in March 1841.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kvf/


Maybe he got the date of his arrival wrong, he was giving the details over 20 years later.

Regards,
Daisy
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Offline willsy

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Re: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 11 October 17 22:06 BST (UK) »
I did find this if it is any help

Convict ships bringing detachments of the 96th regiment to New South Wales included the Barossa, Nautilus, Augusta Jessie, Woodbridge, Maitland, Pekoe, Eden and Woodbridge.

http://www.jenwilletts.com/convict_ship_barossa_1839.htm
Willsy

Ward, Newark (Nottingham), Leicester, Scarborough
Warren, Northampton, Leicester
Moore, Leicestershire
Hunt, Leicestershire
Kirkman, Leicestershire
Hurst, Leicester, Stowmarket
Kendrick, Leicestershire
Eld, Leicestershire
Essex Edey/Eady Elsden/Elsdon

Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Offline John McElroy

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Re: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 11 October 17 23:32 BST (UK) »
Once again thanks to all,
Daisypetal--yep he could have got the date wrong, but also the ship & the arrival port ?
I also noted the 96th was largely shipped out of Sydney to NZ to take part in Maori war or uprising I think in 1844--the same year as he was supposedly discharged at age 22. Not sure what the Army indenture period was back then but this seems a bit young ?
Willsy--I would have thought the 96th (which was a convict guarding regiment) would have travelled on Convict ships to the colony?
However I did note his eldest son William was given the 2nd name as Inkermann--clearly a reference to the battle of Inkermann- Crimean war the previous months of his birth. So he was clearly interested in Army matters ?
Galium/Dundee--your a couple of legends !!----Charles West certainly fits the personality profile. Although I note he had a faint CW & Anchor tattoo on the back of his left hand!---No mention of that in the prison description of 1864 at Melbourne Gaol. --being faint it could have been missed tho & fits with the "shipwright" claim.
I note there is no death of a Charles West in Vict or NSW that matches his age or parenting...

Offline John McElroy

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Re: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 12 October 17 02:10 BST (UK) »
Galium & Dundee---looking at this again, you two are true Legends !!! I am sure you have nailed him.
In Victoria Charles Trinder was known to the Police as a thief, liar & of bad character;an unreliable informant.
I'm a believer in that nobody suddenly becomes bad overnight so he must have had some "history".
I note his 2nd eldest daughter was named Rachel--Trinder of course.--like West's mother.
His youngest son was named James Freeland Trinder---James like West's Father & brother; Freeland the native place of Charles West. (courtesy of Dundee's link)
I have also noted that soldiers of the 96th regiment in 1844 were stationed at Darlington Probation Station on the Maria Islands --Charles 1st internment location in VDL.

As most of his supplied documentation is fraudulent including the last 6 kids birth certificates, I've only got reasonable circumstantial evidence to go on... but its gotta be him !!!
He's taken on the Alias of his mothers maiden name of Trinder, to avoid something he did between 1851 & 1853.--you will note an unanswered handwritten note/ question in his 1864 Melbourne prison record from one assumes a supervisor--requesting "his Proper Name"--an indication I wasn't the only one finding his information to hard to believe.
Thank you so much--Wow !!!--I reckon even his wife & family never knew !

Offline Daisypetal

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Re: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 12 October 17 16:55 BST (UK) »

Hi,

Have you seen this page which shows that the 96th Regt. were told that they were going to Australia in 1839 and the  "British Sovereign" arrived on 18th Nov 1840 with Cptn. Jones 30 other ranks of the 96th Regiment.


http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/shipsthe96th.htm


It's possible that he wasn't lying about serving with 96th Regt. maybe he was discharged in 1844 due to injury or sickness.


I think the WEST/TRINDER surname change sounds really plausible but why would he make up serving in the Army?

Daisy
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Offline John McElroy

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Re: Charles Frederick Trinder b 1820-1825, Oxfordshire died-Victoria Australia
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 12 October 17 21:29 BST (UK) »
Hi Daisy,
It was reported in Charles’s prison record that he arrived in Sydney per the vessel the “British Sovereign” at age 17 in 1839 from Deptford, England; as part of the 96th Regiment. The “British Sovereign” never arrived in Sydney in 1839, but did so in 1838 & 1840 only as a passenger ship. As you have previously said "he might have got the year wrong" but then as a Soldier he also got the port wrong Sydney or VDL (hardly a unintentional mistake).
Unless he did come out as a 17 year old soldier on a passenger ship ? If he was an ranking officer with a family possibly--but a 17 year old private ?
If he was discharged he still had to get to Melbourne--I did even consider him a "Jumper of Ships"
As I said he seemed to be the master of Mudding the waters...
I assume now that Charles West has done something to warrant avoiding detection, hence adopting the story from his life experiences--I reckon he met some soldiers of the 96th on Maria Islands who did come out on the "British Sovereign" & adopted their story but by saying "he was from Sydney" how were they to check that story from Melbourne?
When all the odd things are listed you have to come to the conclusion of his comfort in hiding the truth..
For eg his registering the births of his last 6 children, with Mary Halls from Essex as the mother---some were obviously of "Black" Parentage (photo evidence)---Mary had also signed some of the birth certificates with an X even tho she could W&R ? -- I was puzzled at why he would do that, but then found he had aspirations for obtaining a Liq lic.---then it made sense, he would never of got that whilst he had a brood of Black kids running around !
His 2nd prison stint for perjury is pretty damming --to Blackmail a family by telling lies about their son--which could have seen him hanged for a heinous crime. He clearly had very few "scruples" .
The police report description of him is also damming !---Giving an indication of being a habitual petty crook.
The shallow end of my ancestral linage :)
I don't mind either way as he would be my 4th Convict & 2nd Soldier -ancestral Aussie Grand Father--the more likely truth is my goal.
What would you bet, Charles West or part of the 96th ?