Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?

[lucymags]

Oh, and I have just remembered the other link (which I think another one of my helpers here found, and I documented on my record), that James was in the Giles household aged 7 in the 1841 Census - hence the link with Jane Giles (mother), as his mmn was recorded somewhere as Giles.
I'm fairly sure that it all ties up that he was the one who married Emily in Islington. The 1851 census record shows him as a "teacher in British schools"; then a boarder in Islington in 1861 as a railway clerk. I suppose it is just conceivable that the errand boy may have become a clerk, but seems less likely.

FreeCEN doesn't seem to yield any matching results for the 1861 census for a James Cock b.c.1833.

[Ladyhawk]

Oh, and I have just remembered the other link (which I think another one of my helpers here found, and I documented on my record), that

James was in the Giles household aged 7 in the 1841 Census - hence the link with Jane Giles (mother), as his mmn was recorded somewhere as Giles.

I'm fairly sure that it all ties up that he was the one who married Emily in Islington.

The 1851 census record shows him as a "teacher in British schools";

For info. if this helps anyone looking

1841 c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQBS-N4V
Hugh GILES 73 Hatter (he died age 84 burial 30 Aug 1849 St Mary Truro Res Kenwyn)
Ann 35 grocer
Susan 28 “ (poss death age 40 burial 25 Mar 1949 St Mary Truro Res Kenwyn
James COCK 7
All born in this county

1829 marriage (Cornwall OPC)
James COCK to  Jane GILES
Witnesses Susan GILES & Edward COCK

1841c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQBS-JJK
James COCK (Builder), Jane, William, Edward, Joseph & Jane

1851c HO107; Piece: 1910; Folio: 403; Page: 1
Francis Street Kenwyn
James COCK 48 Builder (employing 2 men)
Jane 47
William 20 Painter
Edward 19 Grocer
JAMES 17 Teacher in British School
Joseph 15 Painter’s appr.
Jane 12
John H 9
1 servant
all born Truro

COCK, JANE mmn  GILES     
1838  D Quarter in TRURO UNION  Volume 09  Page 319   

COCK, JOHN  HENRY  mmn GILES     
1842  J Quarter in TRURO UNION  Volume 09  Page 336

1861 RG 9; Piece: 1559; Folio: 88; Page: 6
Grocers Shop, Kenwyn
James COCK 59 Widr. Mason employing 6 men 1 boy
William  30 painter
Edward 28 Grocer,
Joseph 25 painter,
Jane 22,
John H 18 iron monger
All born Truro

1881 James COCK retired builder and his married dau Jane HARRY with him
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27H-VSTN they are also together on 1871c
her dau Jane born 1870
Jane Giles HARRY  mmn COCK 1870  J Quarter in TRURO 

Obtaining the m/c for James Jnr. would confirm his father's name and their occupations

[Ladyhawk]

I have just found these records pertaining to James Cock son of William and Betsy:

In the census, he and his brother are errand boys and his father a painter, living in Lambeth.
1851 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGT4-3CT

I think that the other James Cock would be a better fit for Emily - educated and at least aspiring middle class... I cannot now recall whether I found anything else definitive or decided on this basis at the time, but in the absence of absolute proof to the contrary, still prefer my James at this point.

1851
William Cock   Head      45   Truro, Cornwall
Betsy Cock   Wife      47   Green, Cornwall
Mathew Cock   Son      19   Green, Cornwall
James Cock   Son      17   Green, Cornwall
Mary Cock   Daughter      15   Green, Cornwall
Emily Cock   Daug      13   Green, Cornwall
Richard Cock   Son      12   Green, Cornwall
Edwin Cock   Son      7   Lambeth
Edwin COCK  mmn WHITFORD    
1843  D Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 04  Page 284

1841c
Betsey Cock   37
Elizabeth Cock   14
William Cock   11
Mathews Cock   9
James Cock   7
Mary Cock   6
Emiley Cock   4
Richard Cock   3
John Cock   1
Piece:   147
Folio:   86
Page Number:   11

Betsy Whitford
Wm Cock
Marriage 1826 St Clement Cornwall
England, Pallot's Marriage Index, 1780-1837

There are these bp on Cornwall OPC at St Clement
Father William occ painter mother Betsy

1826 Eliza Anne Cock
1828 Mary Whitford Cock
1830 William Cock
1831 Matthew Cock
1833 James Cock Cock
1835 Mary Whitford Cock
1840 John Cock at St Mary Truro (GRO indexes confirm mmn WHITFORD)

[lucymags]

Thanks, Ladyhawk.

I have some of those records already, but not all. I started having a look but then discovered a bit of a tangle on Geni (someone else's records who had got their John Cock mixed up with John Henry Cock in my family) and spent many hours investigating and recording those findings and explaining to the other person how they were different (turns our JH moved to Gloucestershire, got married, wife died early, no kids, ended up in Cirencester with his housekeeper and who then becomes his "niece", along with 2 of her sisters, by the look of things).

So I am going to have to revisit this lot later or tomorrow. In the meantime, by chance, I spotted these records when searching on GRO for others:
COCK, EDWIN        mmn WHITFORD     
GRO Reference: 1843  D Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 04  Page 284    
COCK, JOHN        mmn WHITFORD     
GRO Reference: 1840  M Quarter in TRURO UNION  Volume 09  Page 343    

Edit: I have now just spent hours building the Harry family, having found various records for Jane Harry's husband (who died at sea), 2 other children who died young, and various census records for Jane's sisters, etc. Computer has ground to a halt and it's time to take a break.

I haven't returned fully to James, but the fact that he's missing from his family's census record in the year that he's a boarder in Islington adds to the weight of evidence, I think. (I intend to check for more records of the other James' family members, but it seems unlikely that the errand boy James would be boarding in Islington 10 years after his family were living in Lambeth.)

[lucymags]

I have tried to hunt down various male members of the Betsy & William family in future censuses, to no avail. The nearest I came was the 1861 census record which lists the son James as a hatter and his mother Elizabeth as head of household: "England and Wales Census, 1861," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-1FXD : 19 October 2017), James Cock in household of Elizabeth Cock, Bermondsey, London, Surrey, England; from "1861 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO RG 9, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.
- but the ages are slightly out, so I don't know. They say born in "...Cornwall". Can anyone see the record to

Yes, I think that you're right, Ladyhawk - being able to see father's occupation on the marriage certificate should be the definitive proof. What I cannot find is exactly how to order a marriage certificate. The GRO site only seems to offer options for birth and death, although the UK gov sites point to it as the issuer of marriage certificates. I have just emailed them with a query. Various paid services offer access to records (e.g. one called Archive - sign up free for 7 days) - but I'm not sure that they show the actual certificates anyway.

Any other ideas?

In the meantime I will carry on with Albert's profile and see if I can add anything that's not already there. Is there any way of getting a full service record other than from the army? It costs £30 to do it there, which is a little steep... (And they want to be paid by cheque, which probably incurs another £10+ equivalent from Australia!)

[Ladyhawk]

being able to see father's occupation on the marriage certificate should be the definitive proof. What I cannot find is exactly how to order a marriage certificate.

The GRO site only seems to offer options for birth and death, although the UK gov sites point to it as the issuer of marriage certificates. I have just emailed them with a query.

Any other ideas?

You should be able to order the marriage cert. from GRO 

Have a look at this link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory1
 click on heading How to get started ordering online

They are doing a piloting service for Birth & Death
Births: 1837 –1916
Deaths: 1837 –1957
where you can obtain a PDF which costs £6, must be done online and include GRO index reference.

[Ladyhawk]

1851 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKQ-S84
HO107; Piece: 1559; Folio: 174; Page: 43
3 White Hart Court Southwark
Matthew Cook   43 Truro Hatter
Elizabeth Cook   42 Truro
Thomas Cook   17 Hatter
John Cook   14 Errand boy
Margaret Cook   12
James Cook   10 Bermondsey
Matthew Cook   8      "
Edward Cook   3   Southwark

I just edited the above post and may have inadvertently taken out some other info. 
as I had forgotten to add these birth entries at the end of the above

COCK, JAMES   mmn  WILLIAMS 
1840  D Quarter in SAINT MARY MAGDALEN BERMONDSEY SURREY  Volume 04  Page 36

COCK, MATTHEW mmn  WILLIAMS     
1843  J Quarter in SAINT MARY MAGDALEN BERMONDSEY SURREY  Volume 04  Page 31   

COCK, EDWARD    mmn   WILLIAMS     
1847  D Quarter in ST OLAVE'S UNION, SOUTHWARK  Volume 04  Page 485

I probably deleted following 

1861 1 Cross Street Bermondsey
RG 9; Piece: 323; Folio: 69; Page: 13;
Elizabeth Cock   52 Truro
James Cock   28 Truro Hatter (I think he should be JOHN)
next page
Margaret Cock   23 Truro tailoress
James Cock   20 London Hatter
Matthew Cock   18 London leather dresser
Edward Cock   13 London

[Ladyhawk]

I have tried to hunt down various male members of the Betsy & William family in future censuses, to no avail.

1851 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGT4-3CT
original all their pob Truro Cornwall apart from Edwin Lambeth

A public tree  on Anc*y - no certificates ie m/c, b/c, d/c, just references

James Cock 1833 St Clement Truro died 1879 Islington
parents
William Odgers Cock 1805-1854
Betsy Whitford 1804=1861
siblings
Elizabeth Ann 1826
Mary Whitford Cock 1828-1829
William 1830
Mary Whitford 1835-1856
Matthew 1831-1860 Truro
Emily Jane 1836-1912
Richard 1838-1855
John 1840-1842
Edwin 1843-1899

William Odgers Cock Baptism 03 Nov 1805 St. Clement, Cornwall
Father Matthew Cock  Mother   Elizabeth

[lucymags]

Thanks, Ladyhawk.

I have looked all over the GRO site (and successfully ordered and obtained 2 PDFs of birth and death certificates), but the links from the marriage certificates just seem to go around in circles (to the UK government site and then back to GRO again). 

That's weird - the census record. I wonder if the first James was an error which they forgot to cross it out. 

I'll see if I can find anything further about the other members of the family listed there. And Edward is a daughter?? But they don't look like the Betsy and William family.

Edit:And thanks again. I'll head back to the computer and see what I can find in a while.