Author Topic: Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor  (Read 3006 times)

Offline kardinalisimo

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Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor
« on: Saturday 21 October 17 16:02 BST (UK) »
Hi,
I have this framed watercolor with the Owen coat of arms. The note on the back reads circa 1830. I wonder if this piece belonged to a certain family or it is more like a general painting?
Any thoughts and suggestions are welcomed.
Thanks in advance!

Offline Raybistre

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Re: Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 21 October 17 20:16 BST (UK) »
Hi, not very good at heraldry but if that is: Gules, a chevron between three lions rampant Or then The Development of Welsh Heraldry (Siddons) Volume II ascribes the arms to Owen of Bodeon, Llanfeirian, Malltraeth, Anglesey and Orielton, Pembrokeshire. Descent from Hwfa ap Cynddelw.
Ray

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 21 October 17 21:04 BST (UK) »
Good call Raybistre ;D

If I could just correct the original post:
This is a watercolour of AN Owen coat-of-Arms! There is no such thing as a Family coat-of-arms, or arms belonging to a surname.

A quick google search on "Owen coat-of-arms" brings up at least 6 different ones! :-\ ;D
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline kardinalisimo

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Re: Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 22 October 17 02:20 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the replies.
I'm very illiterate when it comes to heraldry.
So, coat of arms does not belong to a family but to a person? And they usually go by first name but not surname?
Let's say you have John Smith Of Wonderland. If you have to write a name on the coat of arms it would be John but not Smith?
And are the coat of arms passed to the next generations? But what about if the son of Owen is let's say George? It still will be Owen but not George's coat of arms?
Sorry if my questions sound a bit off.
By the way, I asked on another forum and the folks there found a similar image from The Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Peerage and Baronetage of the British Empire by John Burke ESQ from the sixth edition 1839.
Is that a good clue?



Offline KGarrad

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Re: Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 22 October 17 07:11 BST (UK) »
This is taken from The College Of Arms website:


FAQs: heraldry

Q. Do coats of arms belong to surnames?

A. No. There is no such thing as a 'coat of arms for a surname'. Many people of the same surname will often be entitled to completely different coats of arms, and many of that surname will be entitled to no coat of arms. Coats of arms belong to individuals. For any person to have a right to a coat of arms they must either have had it granted to them or be descended in the legitimate male line from a person to whom arms were granted or confirmed in the past.


The College of Arms oversees all heraldry matters in England & Wales, and some Commonwealth countries.
Scotland has a different body, the Lord Lyon King of Arms, and it is still illegal in Scotland to use a coat-of-arms to which you are not entitled.

If you look more closely at Burke's, you will see that different Arms are identified by surname and place of residence e.g. Smith of York, Smith of Dover, or whatever.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline MaecW

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Re: Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor
« Reply #5 on: Monday 23 October 17 13:13 BST (UK) »
To answer the first question :
As Raybistre has already pointed out, these are Welsh arms and, in common with Welsh practice, they do indicate the descent of this Owens family from Hwfa ap Cynddelw, Lord of Lifton, c.1085 to 1169.
When the practice of heraldry was adopted by the Welsh rulers and gentry in the 12th/13th century the bards who maintained the records of the lords' descent "back-dated" the designs to the founder of the line. Thus the various families claiming descent from Hwfa use "his" arms, either on their own (as in this example) or differenced in some way, often by quartering.  Another version can be seen in the Arms of the Anglesey County Council which displays the Hwfa arms surrounded by a blue/white border
This unusual, to Anglo-Norman eyes, practice was accepted by the English heraldic authorities and confirmed by the Visitations of the 16th/17th century.
For a more detailed explanation see "http://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/wales/arms_of_the_xv_noble_tribes.htm"

To answer your second set of questions:  a Coat of Arms usually belongs to the senior male line of a family (but there are a few exceptions, as above). In the example you have Owen is the family name , it is not being used as a first name. To take your "John Smith Of Wonderland" : on his death his (eldest) son George inherits the Arms, and so on down the generations as long as there are male heirs. If they were being written up in a compendium they would be described as the arms of "Smith of Wonderland".

As you can see, Heraldry is an interesting and, at times, complicated subject ! ;D

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline kardinalisimo

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Re: Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor
« Reply #6 on: Monday 23 October 17 13:57 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the detailed reply.
So, in my case we can't be sure who this achievement belonged to unless we have some additional information?
If the notation on the back is correct and the painting was done circa 1830, is it possible it belonged to Sir William Owen, the 8th baronet?

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor
« Reply #7 on: Monday 23 October 17 15:02 BST (UK) »
To answer the first question :
As Raybistre has already pointed out, these are Welsh arms and, in common with Welsh practice, they do indicate the descent of this Owens family from Hwfa ap Cynddelw, Lord of Lifton, c.1085 to 1169.
When the practice of heraldry was adopted by the Welsh rulers and gentry in the 12th/13th century the bards who maintained the records of the lords' descent "back-dated" the designs to the founder of the line. Thus the various families claiming descent from Hwfa use "his" arms, either on their own (as in this example) or differenced in some way, often by quartering.  Another version can be seen in the Arms of the Anglesey County Council which displays the Hwfa arms surrounded by a blue/white border
This unusual, to Anglo-Norman eyes, practice was accepted by the English heraldic authorities and confirmed by the Visitations of the 16th/17th century.
For a more detailed explanation see "http://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/wales/arms_of_the_xv_noble_tribes.htm"

To answer your second set of questions:  a Coat of Arms usually belongs to the senior male line of a family (but there are a few exceptions, as above). In the example you have Owen is the family name , it is not being used as a first name. To take your "John Smith Of Wonderland" : on his death his (eldest) son George inherits the Arms, and so on down the generations as long as there are male heirs. If they were being written up in a compendium they would be described as the arms of "Smith of Wonderland".

As you can see, Heraldry is an interesting and, at times, complicated subject ! ;D

Maec

Thanks Maec for such a detailed reply.
I am the first to admit  that, although I study Heraldry, I am by no means an expert - especially Welsh Heraldry ;D
A fascinating link.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline davidbappleton

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Re: Owen Coat Of Arms Watercolor
« Reply #8 on: Monday 23 October 17 19:03 BST (UK) »
So, in my case we can't be sure who this achievement belonged to unless we have some additional information?
If the notation on the back is correct and the painting was done circa 1830, is it possible it belonged to Sir William Owen, the 8th baronet?

The short answer to both of your questions is "yes."

That is, yes, it's generally hard to know for sure to whom an achievement belonged without additional (usually genealogical) information; and yes, it is possible that it belonged to the 8th baronet. However, I have to wonder how likely it is that any baronet would have a painting done of his arms and omit the badge of a baronet in the depiction. So while it is possible that this painting was of Sir William Owen's arms, I'm not sure how probable that identification is.

David