Author Topic: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's  (Read 2216 times)

Offline Essnell

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Re: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's
« Reply #27 on: Monday 30 October 17 07:54 GMT (UK) »
Hi Keyboard 86

I have no idea where Fanny {Massey/ Kelly/ Craggs} and Joseph were in 1871.  I have look many times with no results.

Tried all three surnames and still nothing.  Cannot find John in that year either.  May be they didn't fill out a form. 

Thought --- were there any construction sites up that way in that year - even Scotland? 

These workers moved around an awful lot.   

I am getting PDF's for the birth's of Joseph and James.  Can't locate Annie.  will have in a three more days.

Essnell.  :)



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Offline keyboard86

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Re: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's
« Reply #28 on: Monday 30 October 17 23:05 GMT (UK) »
Hi when Joseph Craggs elisted in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers 20th November 1888 he gave his date of birth as 15th February 1870, his record states he had not resided at his fathers house in the last three years, but his father was the John Craggs I showed at a Runcorn address.

So I looked up a possible John in 1891 in Runcorn and found:-

John Craggs 45 occ Stone Mason b Cumberland
Lydia 44 b Kent
Lydia A 11 b Northumberland
Residing at Pool Lane, Runcorn
Census Ref RG12/2831/135/33

The couple married Sept qtr 1886 Glendale, John Craggs to Lydia Todd, the Lydia A is a child by Lydia prior to marriage.

Lydia is a Widow in 1901 census
Keyboard86




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Offline Essnell

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Re: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 31 October 17 02:28 GMT (UK) »
Hi     So when Joseph enlisted in1888 he was 18yrs old.  Also I would think he would have been posted somewhere in 1891 census year by the Army.

I did try to find an enlistment for a J. Craggs  with no result  but I did find service records, still only for J. Craggs.  He was in Africa by 1899 to 1901. He was injured there.

.....>

 If Joseph had not resided with J. Craggs for the last 3 years that takes us back to 1885. In 1881 he was 11 yrs old, so in 1885 he was 15 and where did he live?  Looks like he had also left and was living with his father when his mother died - 1886  with the .......

In 1881 Joseph was with his mother, Fanny Craggs in Abbeystead Huts with no father. Fanny Craggs was stated as the head of the household - no John Craggs.  Looks like John Craggs had left the family by then.

Would be good to know when the family moved to Cullingworth and with whom?  that impossible!!

One odd statement from my Grandmother was that she was an orphan by 1886, once her mother died. She obviously was told her father had died.   She told all of us that.   


Fanny Craggs/Kelly died in 1886, 10th December. 

So if Lydia A. 11 yrs - was born before 1886 marriage on the 1891 recs, then she was born in 1880.  It means that this John Craggs left Fanny Craggs between 1877 and 1879 Lancashire and went off with Lydia whom he had a child by before Fanny died in Cullingworth, Bingley .

If that is the reality- then Lydia A is a half sister to my Grandmother.  I wonder if there are any others.
So where does the Kelly name fit in between Massey and Craggs for this lady.

Essnell

Offline keyboard86

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Re: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 31 October 17 02:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi I think you are reading too much into Joseph Craggs Attestation, the form only shows the last 3 years he answered No, he possibly never saw his father for 5/6/7 years who knows, re Lydia Alice she was registered as Lydia Alice Todd mmn HOBBS in Glendale and is shown as that in 1901 census?

The question on my lips is just how did Joseph and possibly Fanny know that if this is the correct John just where he lived, ( just noticed he signed on in Runcorn)

And why did Fanny give her "maiden" name to the registered births but call herself Fanny Kelly?

And who was Sarah Ann Kelly who married in  Keighley?
Keyboard86

PS Joseph Craggs served many years, and also served in the Boer War, and prior, received the India Medal with Hazara Clasp 1891, his record is on FindMyPast?

If as you say Joseph lived with his father after Fanny had died in 1886, then he must have lied at his attestation where the question that must be answered is "Have you lived at your fathers house in the last 3 years" he answered NO.
Pelly/Pelley/Kingsbury/Challis/Nalder/Rochester/Raydenbow

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Offline keyboard86

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Re: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 31 October 17 03:36 GMT (UK) »
Hi again, he was called back to service under special A.O. 7th October 1899 ( Suggest to fight in the Boer War ) at the end of his 1st period of service he was discharged in Wrexham and his intended place of residence was 26, Tamworth Street, off Phoebe Street, Salford, Lancashire, this is the exact address that the widowed Lydia Craggs and daughter Lydia Todd were staying in the 1901 census.
Keyboard86
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Offline keyboard86

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Re: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 31 October 17 23:02 GMT (UK) »
Hi again, ok John Craggs plays around a bit with his year of birth, but believe this is possibly him in 1881 census:-

John Craggs 40 Married occ Mason (Stone) b Cumberland
Tom Craggs 35 Single occ Mason (Stone) b Cumberland
They are both shown as boarders with a George Greenwood & family at Cross Roads, Bingley
Census Ref RG11/4344/116/21
Possibly he was born in Penrith with parents Joseph & Eleanor(Ellen)
Keyboard86

PS Essnell, I see you have threads all over the place including Genes Reunited, you were supplied the above 1881 on GR and even yourself provided a potential birth of a Sarah A Kelly mmn Massey, getting a trifle frustrated?!
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Offline Essnell

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Re: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's
« Reply #33 on: Friday 03 November 17 06:40 GMT (UK) »
HI Keyboard86, 

I am sorry you are frustrated.  I have been at this like a dog worrying a bone for at least 15yrs, and the same questions are still there.  I do have accounts on a number of sites but I don't use all of them in the forums.  I have tried to find out answers to specific questions here and on Genes R.

Every time the question reverts to a hunt for the children and goes over some of the same information. It makes it all difficult for you guys but also for me. 

Often the info is misread  but it all goes to prove that I do have some verifiable details but some are there and have not been verified. 

You in particular have been extremely helpful and I am very grateful for what you have found.

I  can only say again :   My grandmother is Ellen Craggs - her death cert from Australia gives her mother as Fanny Massey and her father as John Craggs - on her birth Cert from England [a full one] the selfsame information has been recorded.

I have James' Birth Cert which also provides the same. 

The only place I found the family was in the 1881 Census looking for Ellen first. When I couldn't get anything on either Fanny Massey and John Craggs together anywhere it all became very complex. So I started asking questions.

I have looked in all sorts of directions and keep finding more and more bits that MIGHT fit including several John Craggs . Since the death cert has this note on it re the Stat Dec and how to read the information, I came to believe that Jabez Crabtree knew something that Joseph originally didn't. I thought if I found some relatives they might know.

Add to this the fact that her burial place cannot be found and that is another issue.  Hence the jumps to Middlesborough Cemetry because there is the only record of a "Craggs" person being buried there in 1886  - or anywhere else so far.  Don't go into this it is just tooooooo much.

There are so many loose bits and so many "ifs".

I have not used this site for quite a number of years as I didn 't want people re doing everything all the time but I thought my question was different.  It has lead in a very different direction.

I am waiting on the date to move to the 3rd in England so I can get Joseph and William's Birth info PDF's. I just hope they give the same Info.

Now to answer your post. 

I thought John C was born in 1838 approx   and yes this chap is very likely the children's father. I could not however connect them.

Re Sarah Ann Kelly I have looked for her over and over and the one bit of info has not been verified. I could not get back to the mmn being Massey. Also the dates didn't seem to gel either so i just filed the info for later.

As for Fanny..... being Kelly - Other than Sarah Ann and my grandmother's recollection of her I actually had nothing until I got Fanny Graggs' death Cert to find that she was not Fanny Craggs but Fanny kelly.  She must have called herself Craggs.

I'm still puzzled about Joseph and his father.

I'll let you know what these two Birth Certs say ASAP.

Essnell

Offline keyboard86

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Re: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's
« Reply #34 on: Friday 03 November 17 07:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi again, he was called back to service under special A.O. 7th October 1899 ( Suggest to fight in the Boer War ) at the end of his 1st period of service he was discharged in Wrexham and his intended place of residence was 26, Tamworth Street, off Phoebe Street, Salford, Lancashire, this is the exact address that the widowed Lydia Craggs and daughter Lydia Todd were staying in the 1901 census.
Keyboard86

The Joseph b Mansfield is linked to this widow?

Tell me what is known about William & James?

Also if Joseph is signing documents aged 16 with Jabez Crabtree in Bingley isn't it likely that Jabez took in all the Craggs children after the death of Fanny?

I also think Fanny was older than John, his birth I believe was John Craggs June qtr 1846 Penrith v25 page 150 mmn Maughlin

Marriage of parents oddly appears to be:-

Joseph Craggs to Eleanor Macklaughlin 4th September 1839 Thorney, Cambridgeshire.
Keyboard86
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Offline Essnell

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Re: Looking for relatives of Jabez Crabtree Bingley Uk1880's
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 04 November 17 03:11 GMT (UK) »
Hi Again  from Essnell,

the two PDF's have come through.  These are interesting as there is more info than on the other two I have and both were reported by the mother.

No 1.  Joseph Craggs.  [no second name]

          Date: Seventeenth February 1870  Mansfield Woodhouse
 
          Father's name:    John Craggs
 
          Mother's name:    Fanny Graggs late Kelly formerly Massey

          Father's Occupation:  Stone Quarrier

          Informant:  Hand made X   .. then... Mark of Fanny Craggs Mother Mansfield Woodhouse

          Registration date: Twenty-eighth February 1870

        Signed by the Registrar: Robert Bowler.


{the main Reg district is MANSFIELD  and the registrar's dist is WARSOP  and this is in NOTTINGHAMSHIRE }


So this Proves a definite link for Fanny Masssey to Kelly prior to her being with John Craggs.

? What would the word "late" have signified in that era?   that Mr Kelly had died or that she was just known as Fanny Kelly.

To me it looks like there was a complete break with the association with the name Kelly.   

Now for James :
  Main Reg district SHEFFIELD    Reg sub-District  Sheffield South  County York.

date of birth: Twenty-ninth January 1877   27 Pond Hill

Name:  James [no second name]

Father's Name: John Craggs 

Mother's name:  Fanny Craggs, formerly MASSEY

Father's occupation: A Stone Mason

Informant:    hand made X... then... The mark of Fanny Craggs Mother 27 Pond Hill Sheffield.

Reg. Date: Twenty-fifth February 1877

Registrar: Geo. T. Earle. 

       
Next: What do I know about these two: 

Joseph : Birth Date:  17-02-1870.. confirmed
             Mother: Fanny Massey....."
             Father John Craggs........."
             1881 Census address : Abbeystead Huts No 5 Over Wryesdale Lancashire........confirmrd
             1886 Living somewhere in keighley - Bingley - Cullingworth.
             1886 Mother died in Cullingworth Dec. 10th .......confirmed
             1886 Mother buried 15th Dec .....Confirmed... do not know where
             1887 signs Stat Dec with Jabez Crabtree to effect Mother not Craggs but Kelly and not
               wife but housekeeper.
             1888 Joins the army as you discovered. Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Father identified as John
                     Craggs
             1891 living somewhere in Bingley....

About James:  Birth 29-01-1877  27 Pond Hill Sheffield .......confirmed

                     Father John Craggs ............"
                     Mother Fanny Craggs.........."
                    1881 Census address : Abbeystead Huts No 5 Over Wryesdale Lancashire
                    1886 No Information re this [see edit below]
                    1886 Mother died in Cullingworth Dec. 10th ......confirmed
                    1886 Mother buried 15th Dec ............."
                    1899 Joins the army - Boer War - West Yorkshire Regiment [Prince of Wales Own]
                            Have info but no secondary to confirm.
 
[  unconfirmed info-  Death Richmond Yorkshire 1968]

I have no idea where William and James were after their Mother died.  William would have been 11 and James about 10 years old so they would have had to go somewhere - to an orphanage or a workhouse but that seems not to have occurred.
               Family story:  from my grandmother - Sarah Ann had married a doctor and she offered to take the two younger boys. I don't know if that transpired.  there was also talk about going to America.

Could it be that Sarah Ann Crabtree took in the two boys?
Hope the above is of use. 

I am still looking for Annie's Birth. Adn the link to Kelly for Fanny Massey.

Essnell