Author Topic: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.  (Read 1906 times)

Offline Iain...

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Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
« on: Thursday 26 October 17 09:01 BST (UK) »
Good morning All…

I’m researching a certain CSM Brice McGregor and in particular, his activities following his service as Yeoman of the Guard. 
Brice was a former Sergeant in the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards (The Scots Guards) and was one of the men officially down as assisting with the closing of the north gate in the Hougoumont Farm, Waterloo.

His 1841 census
Suttley House, Whitehall:
Brice McGregor, 59, publican, born abt1782 in Glasgow, Scotland.
Wife Elizabeth ‘McGregor’ (McGheill) 56, born abt1785, England.
Plus several servants.

I always thought that ‘Suttley House’ was a house name because his death indicates; “Died at Suttley House, Whitehall, London on 3rd of December 1846.” 
In the meantime, I’ve discovered that the word ‘suttley’ or ‘suttling’ was the name for a canteen.
I received the following from the Guards Museum this morning…
“You refer to the property in two ways, 'Suttley' and 'Suttling'.  I am a member of the Honourable Artillery Company and the bar at our headquarters (Armoury House, City Road, EC1) has always been known as the Sutling Room and many theories abound as to why it is so named.  I rather like your explanation.....I certainly didn't know that fact.”

Unfortunately, he was unable to tell me where it was exactly.
As you can see with the Wiki URL, this part of the Palace was already built over a ‘suttling house.’ (see the image with a Guard sentry clearly visible)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_House,_St_James%27s_Palace

In order to help find the location, I have a newspaper cutting relative to a prosecution against McGregor in 1832 where he was accused of having thrown a Coldstreamer out of the canteen and he “fell down 5 steps.”   
A witness for the defence of McGregor was a Colonel who fought alongside him at Hougoumont and he said…, “I was watching the incident from the Officer’s Mess where I could see the door.”   Meaning that the Mess must have been at about 90° to the canteen.
Could York House (Wiki image) be the Officer’s Mess with the canteen to the left ?

If anyone has any idea where this suttling house was situated (or better still, a sketch) I’d be extremely interested to receive the details.

Thanks in anticipation…, Iain.
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MacFarlane - Tiree
Wood / Boorman / Gimber / Lee... KENT
Dennett / Mase / Varrier /  Over... KENT

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Offline Iain...

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Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 26 October 17 09:11 BST (UK) »
Just looked at the map..., it's certainly not York House !   To far from St James's !


McArthur - Campbeltown and Tiree Scotland
Black - Campbeltown Scotland - Rathlin Ireland
MacFarlane - Tiree
Wood / Boorman / Gimber / Lee... KENT
Dennett / Mase / Varrier /  Over... KENT

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Offline stanmapstone

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Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 26 October 17 09:14 BST (UK) »
Suttle is in the Oxford English Dictionary
 b. in vbl. n. suttling used attrib., esp. in   suttling-house n. a house where food and drink are supplied, esp. to soldiers; also suttling booth, suttling department, suttling place, suttling shop.

Sutler;  a. One who follows an army or lives in a garrison town and sells provisions to the soldiers.
Stan
Mapstone, Mapston.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Iain...

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Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 26 October 17 09:39 BST (UK) »
Thanks Stan...   ;)
McArthur - Campbeltown and Tiree Scotland
Black - Campbeltown Scotland - Rathlin Ireland
MacFarlane - Tiree
Wood / Boorman / Gimber / Lee... KENT
Dennett / Mase / Varrier /  Over... KENT

Offline Iain...

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Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 26 October 17 09:42 BST (UK) »
I’ve just ‘walked around the block’ using Google Earth and the only place that seems possible is Marlborough Road.

I’m saying this because there was a terrorist attack in 1841 and McGregor was slightly injured…, meaning that the bomb/device must have been thrown into a court yard.   Nearly all the remaining walls of the Palace have uninterrupted buildings.

And no "6 steps' to be seen !   But following about 150 years there could have been alterations. 
McArthur - Campbeltown and Tiree Scotland
Black - Campbeltown Scotland - Rathlin Ireland
MacFarlane - Tiree
Wood / Boorman / Gimber / Lee... KENT
Dennett / Mase / Varrier /  Over... KENT

Online hanes teulu

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Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 26 October 17 09:46 BST (UK) »
http://www.napoleonicwarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=2442&start=170

refers to "... the 'tilt yard' at Horse Guards ..." 
S. Wales, Somerset, Devon - Oxenham

Aberavon - Hopkin/s, Jenkins, Thomas
St. Brides/Wick - Jenkins
Llanblethian -  Price
Abergwynfi -  Han(d)ford
Pontardawe -  Lewis.

Offline Iain...

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Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 26 October 17 10:46 BST (UK) »
Hi there...

Lol..., that's my post on the NWF; but I can't see the relevance in regards to 'tilt yard' ?  And Horse Guards is on the other side of The Mall.  :)

Also more confusion with Wikipedia contradicting Google maps...  Wiki informs us that the building looks on to Cleveland Row. (near Pall Mall)
But using Google, there's no railings or a visible courtyard along that road.  Unless the census is indicating an interior building.
McArthur - Campbeltown and Tiree Scotland
Black - Campbeltown Scotland - Rathlin Ireland
MacFarlane - Tiree
Wood / Boorman / Gimber / Lee... KENT
Dennett / Mase / Varrier /  Over... KENT

Online hanes teulu

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Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 26 October 17 10:49 BST (UK) »
1841 Census
The addresses read -

" ... Adjutant General's Office, Footguards Suttling House, Upper Charles Street, Dover House ..."
A Rebecca Howe is at the Adjutant General's on the '41 Census.

"Accounts and Papers of the House of Commons, Vol 45, 1845

House or Building - Part of the Horse Guards Building
Purpose to which the House or Building is appropriated - The Adjutant General's Office
Names and Official Designations of the Persons residing in the same - Mrs Howe, housekeeper and two servants

Dover House still at southern end of Horseguards 
S. Wales, Somerset, Devon - Oxenham

Aberavon - Hopkin/s, Jenkins, Thomas
St. Brides/Wick - Jenkins
Llanblethian -  Price
Abergwynfi -  Han(d)ford
Pontardawe -  Lewis.

Online hanes teulu

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Re: Suttling House, St James’s Palace.
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 26 October 17 10:53 BST (UK) »
I think the "Suttling House" at Cleveland Row was that of the King's Guard.
Re. the army never sure of the names of the regiments (as they often changed) but thought King's Guard not another name for Foot Guards?
S. Wales, Somerset, Devon - Oxenham

Aberavon - Hopkin/s, Jenkins, Thomas
St. Brides/Wick - Jenkins
Llanblethian -  Price
Abergwynfi -  Han(d)ford
Pontardawe -  Lewis.