Author Topic: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry  (Read 740 times)

Offline BronwenS

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« on: Friday 27 October 17 07:24 BST (UK) »
I have a big quandry over how the two wives of James Brock fit into the timeline. James married Ann McCartney in 1817.  Between 1818 and 1832 they had 9 children.  In 1832 he married Mary/Marjory Fletcher/Wright (Edinburgh) they had a child James born in 1832 and subsequent children. From the 1841 census I assume that some of Ann's children were living with James and Mary.  I have not managed to find birth certificates for any of the second lot of children at all. 

Hope this makes sense but not sure where or how to find out what happened to Ann McCartney/Brock.

thanks Bronwen Summers Ch.Ch. N.Z.


James Brock husband of Ann McCartney (died 1828) and then Mary Fletcher/Wright (James son of Isabella Hamilton & Thomas Brock)
B: 1788???
M:1817 June 20th, Ann McCartney, Barony (register to hand)
M:1832 March 14th Mary Fletcher (register to hand)
D:1866 July 1st aged 78, 48 Muir Street, paralysis for 19 days, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland, weaver, son Alexander Brock signed (register to hand)    No details about this wife at all.
Census
1832 cotton weaver at time of 2nd marriage
1841 James 50, cotton hand loom weaver, Meady Fletcher 40 (not born in county), John 22 cotton hand loom weaver, James 9, Alexander 6, Jean 3
1851 23 Quarry Road, James 60, Mary 50 weaverís wife, John 32, Betty 22 weaverís daughter, Alexander 19, Jane 10 weaverís daughter, James 16.  All males listed are weavers. Father and children all born in Hamilton (Mary was born in Edinburgh)
1861 11 John Street, James 70, hand loom silk weaver, Margot 63 Pirn winder - someone who wound the yarn onto large wheel like bobbins which were then used to feed the cotton wheels hand loom cotton, Alexander 26 hand loom cotton weaver

Ann McCartney wife of James Brock
B:
M:1817 June 20th, James Brock, Shopkeeper, Barony (register to hand)
D:
Children 9
1818 April 13th b May 2nd John Brock, Barony, Glasgow Child 1 (register to hand)
1820 Feb 2nd Jean Brock, Gorbals (register to hand)
1821 June 3rd James Brock (Brok), Gorbals (register to hand)
1823 June 22nd James Brock, Gorbals (register to hand)
1825 July 10th Walter Brock, Gorbals
1825 July 10th Elizabeth Brock, Gorbals
1826 Oct 1st Ė 1828 Anne Brock, Gorbals (both registers to hand)
1829 Nov 1st Robert Brock, Gorbals (register to hand)
1832 June 10th Sarah Agnes Brock, Gorbals (register to hand)

Mary/Marjory Fletcher (Wright) wife of James Brock and mother of Jane Brock
B:(canít find looked for Wright and Fletcher in Edinburgh between 1895 and 1815)
M:1832 March 14th James Brock (register to hand)
D:1872 June 8th 7 Portland Place, Hamilton, 72 years old, died of chronic bronchitis, widow of James Brock, silk weaver, son Alexander Brock, 4 Whitehall Street, Glasgow (register to hand)
Children 5 (canít find on Scotlandís people) this information from the census
1819 John Brock, Barony, Hamilton, Scotland (child of Ann McCarthy?)
1829 Betty Brock, Gorbals,Hamilton, Scotland (child of Ann McCarthy?)
1832 James Brock, Hamilton, Scotland
1835 Alexander Brock, Hamilton, Scotland
1836 Dec 19th a female child to James Brock, born in Glasgow? Not sure of whether this is part of this family or not.
1839 Jane/Jean Brock (Summers by marriage), Hamilton, Scotland ??Ė her death certificate says her mother was Marjory Brock, previously Fletcher and Wright
Census
1871 Marjory Brock, 2 Leechlee Street, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, widow aged 69 born in Edinburgh (no other details given)
Campbell, McKenzie, Ross, MacKay, Munro, Sutherland all of Ross & Comarty
Barry, Gibson, Watson, Summers, Edmonstone, Brock, McCartney all of Glasgow and environs
Erskine, Fletcher of Edinburgh

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Online isobelw

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,193
  • Gran & Granpa Clotworthy
    • View Profile
Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #1 on: Friday 27 October 17 07:56 BST (UK) »
Are you sure that the same James Brock married both women? James and Ann McCartney had a daughter (Agnes) born in Barony in June 1832 so Ann can't have died in 1828, as you state, and James would not have been free to marry Marjory in March 1832. In 1851 census children listed ( earliest being John  b1819) are all shown as born in Hamilton. Hamilton and Barony are miles away from one another geographically and therefore very unlikely this John is the one born in Barony in 1818 to James and Ann.
Isobel
Clotworthy, McMahon, Saunderson, Culley (Ireland & Scotland)
Weatherall, Greer (Ireland & Scotland)
Hamilton, Johnston, Dawson, Rennie, Wright (Clackmannanshire)

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline BronwenS

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #2 on: Friday 27 October 17 08:17 BST (UK) »
Thanks isobel. 
Anne was the daughter who I had thought was born in 1826 and died in 1828 in Gorbals, I have both the registers for this. (I don't think her death is correct either, because she was too old I see). So I wasn't thinking that one was the mother.   

The thing that has me stuck on this is the supposed second wife has children who are the names of the first wife's children on the census. 

Thanks for your other comments on this I will have to look again, to ascertain which is the right one.  Have you any idea why I cannot seem to find the children of Mary/Majory on scotlands people - their births that is. 

Regards Bronwen
Campbell, McKenzie, Ross, MacKay, Munro, Sutherland all of Ross & Comarty
Barry, Gibson, Watson, Summers, Edmonstone, Brock, McCartney all of Glasgow and environs
Erskine, Fletcher of Edinburgh

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,627
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #3 on: Friday 27 October 17 08:49 BST (UK) »
The thing that has me stuck on this is the supposed second wife has children who are the names of the first wife's children on the census.
There are some names that are so common that almost every family has them: Alexander, James, John and William for boys; Elizabeth (Betty), Jane/Jean and Margaret for girls.

Quote
Have you any idea why I cannot seem to find the children of Mary/Majory on scotlands people - their births that is. 
Because either their baptisms were never recorded or, if recorded, the record has not survived. There is any number of reasons why this might happen, ranging from parents not bothering to a register being destroyed in a fire. Estimates vary of the number of baptisms missing from the readily available records.

My own tree has 5428 people born in Scotland before 1855 with at least one parent's name known to me. 1310 of these people's baptisms are missing from the readily available records, i.e. SP. That is almost a quarter. There might be a few more in episcopal church registers, if I can find them, or in the small number of registers held by the National Records of Scotland which SP does not have permission to publish, but I doubt that even if I did, it would make a significant difference.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline BronwenS

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #4 on: Friday 27 October 17 08:56 BST (UK) »
Many thanks Forfarian.  The ages of the people on the census in '41 mean they cannot be the 'second' wife's children.  John is 22 at that point.
The one thing I really did wonder about was that it says he was a shopkeeper for the first marraige, when later he was a weaver and that seems more likely. 

cheers Bronwen
Campbell, McKenzie, Ross, MacKay, Munro, Sutherland all of Ross & Comarty
Barry, Gibson, Watson, Summers, Edmonstone, Brock, McCartney all of Glasgow and environs
Erskine, Fletcher of Edinburgh

Offline BronwenS

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #5 on: Friday 27 October 17 09:11 BST (UK) »
The other thing I  have that is interesting is this on Scotland's people.  Is one likely to be a separate entry for a baptism?

BROCK   JOHN   JAMES BROCK/ANNE MCCARTNEY FR426 (FR426)   M   13/04/1818   644/2    20 81   Gorbals

BROCK   JOHN   JAMES BROCK/ANN MCCARTNEY FR1395 CHILD 1 (FR1395)   M   02/05/1818   622/    50 440   Barony   
Campbell, McKenzie, Ross, MacKay, Munro, Sutherland all of Ross & Comarty
Barry, Gibson, Watson, Summers, Edmonstone, Brock, McCartney all of Glasgow and environs
Erskine, Fletcher of Edinburgh

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,627
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #6 on: Friday 27 October 17 09:11 BST (UK) »
In the FreeCEN transcription of the 1841 census, in Glasgow, there are James Brock, 50, tobacconist; Ann Brock, 45, born Ireland; John, 20; Jane, 20; Eliza, 15; Sarah Ann#, 9.
 
#Ann and Agnes are often used interchangeably.

In 1851, in Glasgow, is a household consisting of James Brock, 40*, upholsterer, born Old Kilpatrick; Anne Brock, wife, 58, born Ireland; Sarah A Brock, daughter, 18, born Glasgow.

*This looks like an error of some sort. The original may clarify it.

There is a death of an Ann McCartney, other surname Brock, aged 87, in Gorbals in 1881. Assuming her age at death is accurate she would have been born in 1793/4. 

Therefore I think that the James Brock married to Marjory Fletcher/Wright is a completely different James Brock, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Anne McCartney.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,627
  • I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
    • View Profile
    • Geograph
Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #7 on: Friday 27 October 17 09:15 BST (UK) »
The other thing I  have that is interesting is this on Scotland's people.  Is one likely to be a separate entry for a baptism?

BROCK   JOHN   JAMES BROCK/ANNE MCCARTNEY FR426 (FR426)   M   13/04/1818   644/2    20 81   Gorbals

BROCK   JOHN   JAMES BROCK/ANN MCCARTNEY FR1395 CHILD 1 (FR1395)   M   02/05/1818   622/    50 440   Barony
This is two different records of the same event. If you look at the IGI at www.familysearch.org you will see that the record from Barony parish gives both the DoB and the date of baptism, but the Gorbals one only the DoB. You need to look at both originals to get the full information. 
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline BronwenS

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #8 on: Friday 27 October 17 09:20 BST (UK) »
Okay thanks for all of that. 
Campbell, McKenzie, Ross, MacKay, Munro, Sutherland all of Ross & Comarty
Barry, Gibson, Watson, Summers, Edmonstone, Brock, McCartney all of Glasgow and environs
Erskine, Fletcher of Edinburgh