Author Topic: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry  (Read 905 times)

Offline isobelw

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Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #9 on: Friday 27 October 17 09:57 BST (UK) »
There are two John Brocks born about 1819 in the 1851 census. There is the one you already have living with James and shown as born Hamilton and another living in Gorbals, Glasgow who is a Tobacco Spinner married to a Christina with a daughter Ann McC Brock age 5. She would appear to be Ann McCartney Brock born 1845 in Gorbals to James Brock and Christina nee Gray. The Hamilton born John ( who married Barbara Forrest) went to Canada and died there. His gravestone gives a precise age down to the number of days and this does not tally with the birth entry you have for John born in Barony.
I agree with Forfarian that these are definitely two different families.
Isobel
Clotworthy, McMahon, Saunderson, Culley (Ireland & Scotland)
Weatherall, Greer (Ireland & Scotland)
Hamilton, Johnston, Dawson, Rennie, Wright (Clackmannanshire)

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Offline BronwenS

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Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #10 on: Friday 27 October 17 10:23 BST (UK) »
Thanks. I am not sure that that adds up given what I already have.

The John Brock I have was born to James & Ann Brock (McCartney)
1818 April 13th b May 2nd John Brock, Calton, Barony, Scotland
A John Brock appears on the 1841 census see below he is 22 and the parents are listed as James & Mary Brock (Fletcher) who didn't marry until 1832 I have the register cert for that and the possible first marraige.   

1841 Lamb St, Gorbals, Hamilton, Lanark, James 50, cotton hand loom weaver, Meady Fletcher 40 (not born in county), John 22 cotton hand loom weaver, James 9, Alexander 6, Jean 3 in 1841 census.
Campbell, McKenzie, Ross, MacKay, Munro, Sutherland all of Ross & Comarty
Barry, Gibson, Watson, Summers, Edmonstone, Brock, McCartney all of Glasgow and environs
Erskine, Fletcher of Edinburgh

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Offline isobelw

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Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #11 on: Friday 27 October 17 13:32 BST (UK) »
James Brock may well have been married before he married Mary Fletcher, but it wasn't to Ann McCartney. That is a completely different family group.
The best way to try and find the name of any first wife would be to find a Scottish marriage or death certificate for one of the possible children of that first marriage i.e. John ( who appears in the 1841 and 1851 census with James and Mary) or Betty ( who appears age 22 in 1851 with James and Mary). John appears to have married Barbara Forrest but this was before the start of civil registration in 1855 so there is no certificate to check. He emigrated to Canada with His wife and children sometime between 1861 and 1871 and died in Huron, Ontario in 1894. Unfortunately his death certificate has no parent details on it. I can't find anything at all on Betty before or after 1851.
Isobel
Clotworthy, McMahon, Saunderson, Culley (Ireland & Scotland)
Weatherall, Greer (Ireland & Scotland)
Hamilton, Johnston, Dawson, Rennie, Wright (Clackmannanshire)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #12 on: Friday 27 October 17 18:51 BST (UK) »
Thanks. I am not sure that that adds up given what I already have.
Not surprising. If you try to add two (James Brock and Ann McCartney) and two (James Brock and Mary Fletcher) you are bound to get five.

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The John Brock I have was born to James & Ann Brock (McCartney)
1818 April 13th b May 2nd John Brock, Calton, Barony, Scotland
Yes, so far so good. There is a family in Warwick Street, Glasgow in 1841 comprising James Brock, Ann Brock, John Brock, aged 20, Jane Brock, 20, Eliza Brock, 15 and Sarah Ann Brock, 9. These match the names and ages of the children of James Brock and Ann McCartney. I have already pointed out that the names Ann and Agnes are used interchangeably, that Sarah A, 18, is with James and Ann Brock in Glasgow in 1851, and that Ann McCartney or Brock died in Glasgow in 1881. Therefore not only did Ann McCartney not die before 1832, she was alive and living with her husband in Glasgow 18 years later, and she lasted another 30 years after that. John's age is spot on for the son of James Brock and Ann McCartney, because adults' ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years in 1841. Therefore it looks as if the John Brock living with James Brock and Ann McCartney is their son and it follows that the one living with James Brock and Mary Fletcher is not the son of Ann McCartney.

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A John Brock appears on the 1841 census see below he is 22 and the parents are listed as James & Mary Brock (Fletcher)
No. He is in the same household as James Brock and Mary Fletcher. There is nothing to say that he is the son of either. If he is James' son he is unlikely to be Mary's, as James and Mary had only been married 8 years and he is 22, so this James Brock may well have been married twice, but his first wife is not Ann McCartney. John could even be Mary's son by her first husband, having taken his stepfather's surname.

I don't understand why you are so determined that the James Brock who married Ann McCartney is the same person as the James Brock who married Mary Fletcher or Wright. The 1851 census says that all the latter's family were born in Hamilton, while the children of James Brock and Ann McCartney were born in Glasgow (Calton/Barony/Gorbals). This on its own is enough to show that they are two different families, even without the overlap of dates.

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1836 Dec 19th a female child to James Brock, born in Glasgow? Not sure of whether this is part of this family or not.
As this child was born in Glasgow, not in Hamilton, it is more likely that she was another daughter of James Brock and Ann McCartney than that she was a daughter of James Brock and Mary Fletcher.

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The one thing I really did wonder about was that it says he was a shopkeeper for the first marraige, when later he was a weaver and that seems more likely.
It makes perfect sense unless you think they are the same individual.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #13 on: Friday 27 October 17 18:55 BST (UK) »
PS I strongly suggest that you take a look at the death certificates of James Brock in Gorbals in 1876, Ann McCartney or Brock in 1881, and of John Brock in 1883 in Gorbals, and see what they tell you.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline BronwenS

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Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #14 on: Friday 27 October 17 20:07 BST (UK) »
Thanks, sorry to be so frustrating I am just trying to get my head around this.  I will look at the certificates you suggest I do have a death certificvate for James that I thought was him with a son Alexander signing.
1866 July 1st aged 78, 48 Muir Street, paralysis for 19 days, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland, weaver, son Alexander Brock signed (register to hand).  It does have Mary in the '71 census as a widow.

I need to track down John Brock listed on the 1841 census with James & Mary's children.   It does have a tick to the query about where he is born and it is the same as James and the children. 

Thanks Bronwen Ch.Ch. NZ     


Campbell, McKenzie, Ross, MacKay, Munro, Sutherland all of Ross & Comarty
Barry, Gibson, Watson, Summers, Edmonstone, Brock, McCartney all of Glasgow and environs
Erskine, Fletcher of Edinburgh

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #15 on: Friday 27 October 17 20:10 BST (UK) »
Thanks, sorry to be so frustrating I am just trying to get my head around this.  I will look at the certificates you suggest I do have a death certificvate for James that I thought was him with a son Alexander signing.
But James Brock and Ann McCartney didn't have a (recorded) son named Alexander.

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I need to track down John Brock listed on the 1841 census with James & Mary's children.
Why? Isobel has already found that he married Barbara Forrest in 1845, emigrated to Canada and died in Huron Ontario.

Which of all these Brocks is your ancestor?
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #16 on: Friday 27 October 17 20:17 BST (UK) »
1841 Lamb St, Gorbals, Hamilton
You need to look at the original of this. Gorbals is a parish in Glasgow, and Hamilton is a parish elsewhere in Lanarkshire. They are mutually exclusive; a place in Gorbals cannot be in Hamilton, and a place in Hamilton cannot be in Gorbals.

The SP index to the 1841 census lists them in Hamilton.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline isobelw

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Re: Brocks from Hamilton James Ann and Mary a quandry
« Reply #17 on: Friday 27 October 17 20:27 BST (UK) »
The OP is interested in the antecedents of Jane Brock who married John Summers in Hamilton in 1859. She already knows from her death certificate that she was the daughter of James Brock and Margery Fletcher. The information she has already sourced regarding James Brock and Ann McCartney is not relevent to the family line she is researching. Checking the death certificates of James and Ann nee McCartney is therefore a waste of time and money.
Isobel
Clotworthy, McMahon, Saunderson, Culley (Ireland & Scotland)
Weatherall, Greer (Ireland & Scotland)
Hamilton, Johnston, Dawson, Rennie, Wright (Clackmannanshire)