Author Topic: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?  (Read 1373 times)

Offline myluck!

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Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« on: Friday 27 October 17 10:25 BST (UK) »
Just curious - while looking up records today I noticed that all the marriages on this page have the word Roman crossed out in the phrase Roman Catholic Church?
LINK to 1915 page

The church at Golden Bridge was located in a convent that was also a mother and baby home but under Roman Catholic patronage.

So I looked up another marriage that I was sure was in Goldenbridge in 1923 and all the Golden Bridge marriages have Roman crossed out but the one in Chapelizod is not.  LINK

Was it that the priest didn't want to break some rule in marrying a pregnant woman? maybe?
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder

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Offline eadaoin

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 28 October 17 12:38 BST (UK) »
hi myluck!
I think I've seen this somewhere - I just assumed that the parish priest felt that only R.C.s were Catholics, so that Catholic was sufficient - somewhat political/sectarian?

I think I've also seen "chapel" crossed out and replaced by "church" (must check on that) - also sort of political/sectarian?
Begg - Dublin, Limerick, Cardiff
Brady - Dublin
Breslin - Wexford, Dublin
Byrne - Wicklow
O'Hara - Wexford, Kingstown
McLoghlin - Roscommon
Lawlor - Meath, Dublin
Lynam - Meath and Renovo, Pennsylvania
Everard - Meath
Fagan - Dublin
Meyler/Myler - Wicklow
Gray - Derry, Waterford
Kavanagh - Limerick

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Offline KGarrad

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 28 October 17 13:17 BST (UK) »
I have no idea about this, but just throwing it out?

Is it possible that the church in question, and the priest, were somehow separate from the Roman Catholic Church?

I lived in Utrecht for 16 years, and used to often pass St Gertrude's Cathedral, of the Old Catholic Church. Oud-katholiek kathedral in Dutch.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline heywood

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 28 October 17 14:53 BST (UK) »
I wonder the same as eadaoin.
Perhaps the priest or the registrar thought it unnecessary.

Searching for ‘Goldenbridge’ also brings up St Michael’s, Inchicore perhaps locally it was known as that?
I wouldn’t have thought that the marriages would have taken place in the industrial school chapel but I have no idea really.
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Offline myluck!

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 28 October 17 17:28 BST (UK) »
Thank you for the replies

What I have found out for definite is
A Chapel is a small building or room used for worship in a school, prison, hospital, or large private house
A Church is a building used for public worship
A Cathedral is the designated principal church within a diocese

Goldenbridge Chapel was attached to the convent of St. Vincent's Industrial School, Inchicore
St. Michael's Church in Inchicore is a separate building acting as the Parish Church on Bulfin Road

It has been put to me that some girls who went into the convent in the early part of the 1900s because they were pregnant were actively encouraged to marry "the man" and were married in the Chapel attached to the convent where they would not necessarily have been married by a parish priest.  It was cheaper for the nuns to let them out to have their child in a family scenario than to accommodate them.

I have looked at several marriages now and found that most couples had a child relatively quickly afterwards.

I also looked at other records and found that Roman is only marked out for some locations.

It's interesting!

I know the family I was looking at it was said he was on the run during the Civil War and went to marry in April 1923 when he could have been captured.  Their daughter was born in June 1923.  The Sisters of  Mercy have no record of her ever being there! Except for the marriage in their chapel!
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder

Offline heywood

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 28 October 17 17:57 BST (UK) »
 I read an article where the children from the industrial school went to St Michael’s for confirmation - later than 1915 though.
1911 census shows only children - not a mother and baby home.

Here is Father O’ Ryan in 1911 and he is living on St Vincent’s Street so that fits.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000131588/

The House and Buildings form shows a church, a school and then the Presbytery house.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000131481/

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Offline eadaoin

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 28 October 17 19:02 BST (UK) »
I've checked a number of my marriage certs . .

Chapel/Church

St Michael's Limerick 1871/1900/1905

Arran Quay, Dublin 1902/1904

Peter & Paul, Cork 1907

St Andrew's Westland Row Dublin, 1884/1897/1905 (1905 is the only one with Roman )
. . . in 1865/1870 St Andrew's doesn't replace Chapel by Church (??before Disestablishment??)
. . . by 1912 they've a new pro-forma book.

I've plenty of Certs from other R.C. churches in Dublin (St Nicholas etc) where they don't bother crossing out.
Begg - Dublin, Limerick, Cardiff
Brady - Dublin
Breslin - Wexford, Dublin
Byrne - Wicklow
O'Hara - Wexford, Kingstown
McLoghlin - Roscommon
Lawlor - Meath, Dublin
Lynam - Meath and Renovo, Pennsylvania
Everard - Meath
Fagan - Dublin
Meyler/Myler - Wicklow
Gray - Derry, Waterford
Kavanagh - Limerick

Offline myluck!

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 29 October 17 11:35 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Heywood & Eadaoin

I have looked at some other records myself around the country and it doesn't seem to be consistent. It is as if some priests were meticulous in correcting Chapel to Church and visa versa but the strike out of Roman seems to be more personal.
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder

Offline heywood

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 29 October 17 12:43 GMT (UK) »
Yes, my own church here was, I think, referred to as a Chapel but originally a long, long time ago, it was established in a room and then the church built. I also read that non-conformist (not of the established church) places of worship were also referred to as chapels, as some are now, but not sure how that would work in Ireland.

Going back to this one though, myluck, in 1901 census, the Goldenbridge Chapel is next to the Christian Brothers school but I can’t see if this was separate from the Sisters of Mercy school.
I know we have digressed but it is interesting looking at these things. :)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003702652/
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk