Author Topic: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?  (Read 1579 times)

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 29 October 17 13:04 GMT (UK) »
Here in Ireland, the term chapel is most commonly used to describe a Roman Catholic church. In most cases that would actually be a parish church  rather than a chapel (ie a small church serving an individual family or ecclesiastical or other institution, such as a prison or hospital). So in Ireland the term chapel often does not really mean a chapel. If you asked anyone here what a chapel was though, they would mostly say RC church, before thinking of nonconformist churches, as is the case in England & Wales.  (Nonconformists in Ireland tend to have meeting houses and gospel halls, rather than chapels).

As far as completing the civil register was concerned, it was up to the priest to decide what term to use to describe the building where ceremony took place. The form is pre-printed with the words “Roman Catholic “_________” of “___________” The priest is then free to enter church, cathedral or whatever he judges correct.

As far as deleting the word “Roman” on the civil marriage certificate is concerned, I have never seen that done before. That looks to me to be one individual priest's personal foible.  In Ireland, the words Roman Catholic have been printed on those forms since 1864. I don’t know whether the wording was ever agreed with the church but I am not aware of any widespread objection to it in the past 150 years and suspect 99% of priests and their superiors are content with it.
Elwyn

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Offline myluck!

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 29 October 17 13:31 GMT (UK) »
Here in Ireland, the term chapel is most commonly used to describe a Roman Catholic church.

I find this interesting as I grew up in Ireland and thought of a Chapel as somewhere private but not necessarily of a particular religion.  The local big house to us in Roscommon was a Catholic family and held their baptisms and marriages in their own Chapel. 

Some churches have a private chapel off the main area of the church. 

The definitions I gave came from a Catholic Monsignor who feels the priest in question would have had reservations marrying a pregnant woman and therefore felt obliged to mark out the word Roman so he couldn't be accused of breaking church rules on a technicality! But we really don't know for sure.  I couldn't help but ask when it popped up a few times.
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder

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Offline hallmark

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 29 October 17 13:35 GMT (UK) »
Maybe thy thought of themselves as being part of the Irish Catholic Church??

Offline myluck!

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 29 October 17 14:56 GMT (UK) »
I asked about this but it wasn't as much an issue a hundred years ago as today seemingly being Roman Catholic or an Irish Catholic.

I'll keep a lookout from now on as it is interesting.
Kearney & Bourke/ Johns & Fox/ Mannion & Finan/ Donohoe & Curley
Byrne [Carthy], Keeffe/ Germaine, Butler/ McDermott, Giblin/ Lally, Dolan
Toole, Doran; Dowling, Grogan/ Reilly, Burke; Warren, Kidd [Lawless]/ Smith, Scally; Mangan, Rodgers/ Fahy, Calday; Staunton, Miller
Further generations:
Brophy Coleman Eathorn(e) Fahy Fitzpatrick Geraghty Haverty Keane Keogh Nowlan Rowe Walder

Offline eadaoin

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 29 October 17 18:25 GMT (UK) »
As far as completing the civil register was concerned, it was up to the priest to decide what term to use to describe the building where ceremony took place. The form is pre-printed with the words “Roman Catholic “_________” of “___________” The priest is then free to enter church, cathedral or whatever he judges correct.

The older books had "Roman Catholic Chapel of_______" on them.
I presume that before Disestablishment, this had to be left unchanged.
After Disestablishment ?1870ish?, they were still using the old registers - some priest let it be, others crossed out the word chapel.
Once the old registers were finished, the new Registers were printed as Elwyn Soutter describes.
Later on, from 1950s-1970s, I have several Certs (all Dublin) where the description is "Catholic _____ of" . . . . . . no mention of Roman.
Begg - Dublin, Limerick, Cardiff
Brady - Dublin
Breslin - Wexford, Dublin
Byrne - Wicklow
O'Hara - Wexford, Kingstown
McLoghlin - Roscommon
Lawlor - Meath, Dublin
Lynam - Meath and Renovo, Pennsylvania
Everard - Meath
Fagan - Dublin
Meyler/Myler - Wicklow
Gray - Derry, Waterford
Kavanagh - Limerick

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Why is Roman crossed out on Civil Record?
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 19 November 17 23:05 GMT (UK) »
I am a little surprised at the answers to this question. The answer, of course, is that the church in question was and is simply the "Catholic Church". This was not legally accepted by the British, who insisted on using the term  "Roman Catholic Church".  Some priests corrected this.
Similarly, the use of "chapel" reflects the usage of the time when the United Church of England and Ireland and was the Established Church. Only churches of the established church were legally churches, all others being mere "chapels".
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens; CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter; COSGRAVE Castlebridge; CULLEN Lady's Island; CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook; DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack; FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown; HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wexford; McGILL Litter; MORRIS Forth Commons; PIERCE Lady's Island; POTTS Bennettstown; REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wexford; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit; SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wexford; SMYTH Gerry/Oulart; WALSH Kilrane/Wexford