Author Topic: BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD  (Read 2884 times)

Offline Jaznjjj

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BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD
« on: Thursday 02 November 17 08:30 GMT (UK) »
This is an enquiry which arises from the 1841 Scotland Census.  I am interested in the Bruce and Watson families who appear at Barrhead on that Census date. 

Parish Neilstone, ED; Page 38, Line 1320.   I have only sighted a transcript so do not know how the family groups are composed. 

I would welcome communication with anyone who has any knowledge of these families please, or Barrhead generally.   

This is hopefully the culmination of a 40 year effort to locate some members of this family! 

Regards, J.

Offline anne_p

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Re: BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 02 November 17 08:52 GMT (UK) »
I think you should obtain the original 1841 census  which available from Scotlands People to ascertain how many actual households were involved

I can see the transcription of this household on Ancestry, FindMyPast and on Freecen.
None contain the same info.

Freecen shows this as 3 separate households.
Bruce in 1st household
Steven and Perry in next household and Watson in 3rd house

https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Everyone born in Renfrewshire except:
 Mrs Elizabeth Bruce  (1st property) and  James and Agnes Watson ( 3rd property)

Offline Jaznjjj

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Re: BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 02 November 17 09:27 GMT (UK) »
Thank you.  I'll follow your advice.   

Of particular interest is the fact that Margaret Bruce (ten years old) is quite possibly the daughter of Richard Bruce and his wife Maria nee Parkinson.  Richard was a soldier who enlisted in the 11th Regiment Devonshire at Paisley in 1831.  Margaret was left behind when Richard, his wife and other children, embarked with the regiment in August 1845 and it is believed that she was raised possibly by grandparents.  The census information suggests that Richard Bruce may have been a native of Barrhead even though he does not appear on the census.  In 1841 he was recruiting for the regiment in Devon, England.   

It is very exciting to be so close to a possible breakthrough in this long-standing brick wall. 

J

Offline anne_p

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Re: BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 02 November 17 10:05 GMT (UK) »
Cross reference the 1841 census info with the index on Scotlands People.
572/ 15/ 37
BRUCE
MARGARET
1841
F
**20 **
Neilston
Renfrew

This is Margaret Bruce in household of James and Elizabeth Bruce and  shows to be aged 20yrs which concurs with Freecen

It's the Ancestry version that says 10yrs


Offline Jaznjjj

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Re: BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 02 November 17 10:15 GMT (UK) »
Looks like transcription error.  One of my correspondents has some credits with Scotlands People and I have asked her to have a look at the original if possible.  If Margaret is aged 20 it is not the neat fit I was getting excited about, but the commonality of names and the geography mean it is still a family of interest.   J

Offline anne_p

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Re: BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 02 November 17 10:31 GMT (UK) »
I am rather confused.
Is this the family in Stoke Damerell, Devon at 1841 ?

Elizabeth Hain   20
Richard Bruce   30 Shoemaker
Maria Bruce   30
Ruth Bruce    9
Maria Bruce   9

Every person called Bruce on this return shows born in : Ireland


Is there any other document which shows he was born in Scotland?

Edit:
I can see that this family emigrated to Australia and Maria remarried in 1869
Her 1881 death announcement mentions just 3 children
R.H Bruce, Mrs Sibley ( Maria) Mrs Phillips ( Elizabeth)

There is no mention of any other children, Margaret or Ruth??

Offline Jaznjjj

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Re: BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 02 November 17 19:22 GMT (UK) »
It is the same family and, yes, it is confusing.  Richard Bruce at that time was a soldier in the 11th regiment and the family moved around England and Ireland recruiting for the regiment.  The occupation being given as shoemaker is possibly because soldiers in British regiments were expected to have a trade as well to enable as much self-sufficiency as possible for the regiment.  Researchers of this family here have had to assume some shortcuts and errors on the part of the census takers.  For instance, Ruth and Maria were not the same age.   'Born in Ireland' does apply to the  children listed in this census and probably his wife, Maria, as well  The eldest child, Margaret, appears to have been left behind - we have always thought in Ireland - but we are now having second thoughts.   I have been in contact with descendants of Margaret in Derryaghy in Ireland which is where the first three children in Richard's family were baptized.

Richard's Scottish origins are referred to in a number of newspaper accounts.  Our quest has been ongoing for many years to locate his birth, marriage and parentage.  This connection in Barrhead is the most promising lead we have ever had.  It may be a red herring, but there are commonalities in family names and geography which cannot be overlooked.  There may be an indirect connection. 

The family, including two later children but without Margaret, embarked for the colony of New South Wales with the 11th regiment in 1845.  Richard served as a convict guard on Norfolk Island during that most notorious time in the mid 1840s.  He was discharged in 1848 and settled in South Australia.  He died in 1854.  His relatively early death and the paucity of South Australian records has made research difficult.

Maria does remarry John Abraham/s.  Death certificates are only as good as the informant's knowledge and that informant probably was unaware of Margaret's existence.  Ruth had married and settled in Sydney (a great distance away in that era) at the time of her father's discharge from the regiment and John Abraham/s may not have been aware of her.  Either that or regarded their existence as unimportant. 

Very happy to answer questions.    J

Offline anne_p

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Re: BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD
« Reply #7 on: Friday 03 November 17 10:19 GMT (UK) »
I can see where you are coming from but, if Richard Bruce was Scottish and joined the Army in Paisley 1841, aged around 30yrs, how do you reconcile him having children, born and baptised in Co Antrim prior to this year?
If daughter Margaret was born in Ireland circa 1831, Richard would be around 20yrs old at this time?

Offline Jaznjjj

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Re: BRUCE and WATSON - Village of BARRHEAD
« Reply #8 on: Friday 03 November 17 11:09 GMT (UK) »
I and other Bruce descendants are also trying to make sense of it.   We have a timeline which, while it has gaps, is fairly logical.  We can only assume that been age 20 and 30 he was something like an itinerant worker - but there is also a distinct possibility that he was a soldier in the 25th regiment before joining the 11th in Paisley.  While I have a great deal of information about the 11th, have only just started exploring records on the 25th.  If he was a soldier in the 25th he might have also been recruiting in Ireland with them, as he did with the 11th. His second and third daughters were born in Belfast (where he was recruiting with the 11th) but baptized in Derryaghy.  J