Author Topic: Mary Carter  (Read 1049 times)

Offline MattD30

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Mary Carter
« on: Friday 03 November 17 02:08 GMT (UK) »
I'm hoping someone can help me confirm the christening of my ancestor Mary Carter who married William Watson of Chilham.

Mary Carter married William Watson of Chilham on 7 May 1639 at the parish church of St George in Canterbury. They married by licence and this states that William was aged about 25, was the son of Hamon Watson, and was of Chilham. It also states that Mary was 'of Selling', aged 19, and the daughter of Thomas Carter who consented to the marriage.

This would make Mary born c1619 or 1620 but so far I haven't be able to find any record of a Mary Carter born in Selling to a Thomas Carter.

The nearest I've found is a christening for a Mary Carter daughter of Thomas Carter, in Elmstead, dated 21 April 1619.

This seems a bit far from Selling to be my Mary but possibly not too far. It would be a great help if anyone could double check for any sign of a christening for Mary in Selling between 1618 and 1621 to make sure I have the right person.

Thanks

Matt

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Offline grandarog

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Re: Mary Carter
« Reply #1 on: Friday 03 November 17 11:38 GMT (UK) »
I think this one needs further investigation as dont think there was a Parish of sTelling more likely to be a mis transcription of Selling.

Mary   C.
Baptism date 18 Oct 1618 Stelling Kent,
Father's first name(s)   Thomas

Or this one .Norton (not that far from Selling )

Mary   Carter
Baptism date 02 Jan 1619 Norton Kent
Father's first name(s)   Thomas
Father's last name   Carter

WAGHORN/E
KENWARD
HARRIS
DIXON
MARSHALL
MERCER
CARE
FAGG
RUSSELL
WOODRUFF      

 All these  Families were Born and Bred in Kent

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Offline MattD30

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Re: Mary Carter
« Reply #2 on: Friday 03 November 17 21:47 GMT (UK) »
I think this one needs further investigation as dont think there was a Parish of sTelling more likely to be a mis transcription of Selling.

Mary   C.
Baptism date 18 Oct 1618 Stelling Kent,
Father's first name(s)   Thomas

Or this one .Norton (not that far from Selling )

Mary   Carter
Baptism date 02 Jan 1619 Norton Kent
Father's first name(s)   Thomas
Father's last name   Carter

Hi

Since posting my original message I have found the christening of Mary Carter in Norton. I think this may be my Mary as her siblings seem to have all been christened in Selling. So far I've found the following:

Martha Carter - christened 24 March 1621 - daughter of Thomas
Susan Carter - christened 16 November 1624 - daughter of Thomas
Elizabeth Carter - christened 5 July 1627 - daughter of Thomas
Thomas Carter - christened 12 November 1629 - son of Thomas

Their parents may have been Thomas Carter and Isabell Ruckebirgin [also transcribed online as Rusk and Ruck] [daughter of Richard Zusk] who were married in Norton in 1618. If that's the case then it would be interesting to know where the Zusk line came from as it doesn't sound like a Kentish name.

I'm more inclined to think that the Mary christened in Norton is more likely than the one in Elmsted now. I hadn't come across the christening in Stelling though. At the moment the Norton one looks the most likely. I don't know how far Stelling is from Chilham though.

If my Mary is the one from Norton then there may be a connection to the Carter family of Winchcombe Manor in Crundale, which appears to go back at least to the 13th century. More investigation is needed though.

Matt

Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Mary Carter
« Reply #3 on: Friday 10 November 17 08:37 GMT (UK) »
Hi Grandarog,

Quote
I think this one needs further investigation as dont think there was a Parish of sTelling more likely to be a mis transcription of Selling.

Stelling Minnis (the primary Stelling parish) as well as the chapelry of Stelling are 3.3 miles northwest of Elmsted and 3.2 miles northeast of Elham.  It's a bit of a hotbed for yeomanry families and boasts its own Ruck branch that came out of Elham. 

I hope this clears up any doubts about the existence of a parish named Stelling in Kent.  it's little.  It's not often encountered.  But, it's there.   ;)

Susan
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Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Mary Carter
« Reply #4 on: Friday 10 November 17 09:06 GMT (UK) »
Hi MattD30,

It's me, again.  One day I will catch up on all my email correspondence to you.  But, in the meantime, I stumbled across your posting concerning the Ruck branch at Norton.

I am considered the one with the most in-depth research of the entire Ruck(e) family (all branches) in Kent, Wales and Middlesex/Surrey, since roughly 1435 down to the turn of the 20th-century.  Even published a book of the research many years ago.

Yes, Thomas Carter, the yeoman of Selling, spent some time in Norton and did have several children there, including a Mary.  I have never pursued the Will of Thomas Carter so cannot say with 100% certainty that that Mary married William Watson.  However, it does look that way, prima facia, via the evidence of the marriage license.

Thomas Carter  and his wife, Isabel Ruck, are recorded in Burke's Landed Gentry, 18th ed., vol. II, 1969, as being first cousins to each other, she being the daughter of Richard Ruck of Norton, yeoman.  Richard Ruck of Norton was married to Marie Carter, the daughter of George Carter and his wife Alisie, of Crundale and, yes, this line does go back to Winchcombe manor at Crundale.

Thomas Carter (who married Isabel Ruck) was the son of Thomas Carter and Susanna Clive.  This second named Thomas Carter was the brother of Richard Ruck's wife, Marie Carter.  The Carter family appears in several of the Herald's Visitations.

The Carter and Ruck families were intersected along several branches and twigs for about 200 years.

If you have a relationship here, then we are also related along the Ruck line, in addition to our Austin/Denne linkages.  Mary CARTER and Mary RUCK (my 5th great-grandmother) were 3rd cousins, twice removed.  Their common ancestors are John RUCK and Margaret (suspected to be a Carter or an Oliver but as yet unidentified).

Richard Ruck was a son of William Ruck and Margaret Carter of Boughton-under-Blean.  This Margaret Carter was a sister of the George Carter who was the father of Marie Carter who married Richard Ruck.  Confused yet?  George and Margaret Carter's father was also named George Carter and died at Winchcombe in 1559.

I shall leave my response here as it will take some time to process this news, I'm sure.

Sincerely,
Susan
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
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Offline MattD30

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Re: Mary Carter
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 11 November 17 00:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi MattD30,

It's me, again.  One day I will catch up on all my email correspondence to you.  But, in the meantime, I stumbled across your posting concerning the Ruck branch at Norton.

I am considered the one with the most in-depth research of the entire Ruck(e) family (all branches) in Kent, Wales and Middlesex/Surrey, since roughly 1435 down to the turn of the 20th-century.  Even published a book of the research many years ago.

Yes, Thomas Carter, the yeoman of Stelling, spent some time in Norton and did have several children there, including a Mary.  I have never pursued the Will of Thomas Carter so cannot say with 100% certainty that that Mary married William Watson.  However, it does look that way, prima facia, via the evidence of the marriage license.

Thomas Carter  and his wife, Isabel Ruck, are recorded in Burke's Landed Gentry, 18th ed., vol. II, 1969, as being first cousins to each other, she being the daughter of Richard Ruck of Norton, yeoman.  Richard Ruck of Norton was married to Marie Carter, the daughter of George Carter and his wife Alisie, of Crundale and, yes, this line does go back to Winchcombe manor at Crundale.

Thomas Carter (who married Isabel Ruck) was the son of Thomas Carter and Susanna Clive.  This second named Thomas Carter was the brother of Richard Ruck's wife, Marie Carter.  The Carter family appears in several of the Herald's Visitations.

The Carter and Ruck families were intersected along several branches and twigs for about 200 years.

If you have a relationship here, then we are also related along the Ruck line, in addition to our Austin/Denne linkages.  Mary CARTER and Mary RUCK (my 5th great-grandmother) were 3rd cousins, twice removed.  Their common ancestors are John RUCK and Margaret (suspected to be a Carter or an Oliver but as yet unidentified).

Richard Ruck was a son of William Ruck and Margaret Carter of Boughton-under-Blean.  This Margaret Carter was a sister of the George Carter who was the father of Marie Carter who married Richard Ruck.  Confused yet?  George and Margaret Carter's father was also named George Carter and died at Winchcombe in 1559.

I shall leave my response here as it will take some time to process this news, I'm sure.

Sincerely,
Susan

Hi Susan

I have just looked at your two posts very quickly and was about to double check the Marriage Licence transcript in case I had misread Stelling as Selling. However it is definitely Selling rather than Stelling.

However the only Mary I have found that seems to fit the details in the ML is the one christened in Norton. William Watson's father was Hamon[d] Watson, yeoman, and so it would seem to make sense for one yeoman family to marry into another. Is Stelling far from Norton, Selling or Chilham?

I am inclined to believe that the Mary Carter christened in Norton is my one as this seems the most likely. However I am also inclined to double check the one in Selling born in October 1618. The one in Elmstead seems unlikely though.

In general I think that the Mary christened in Norton is more than likely to be mine and therefore I suspect that there is a link to the families you mentioned. However that's where it appears to get complicated. I'm going to read through your message again overnight (along with the other messages here) and look at the entry in Burkes so that I can draw up a better picture of the family.

By the way I have not found any reference to a Will for Thomas Carter. Do you think there may be one?

I think this definitely sounds interesting and look forward to hearing more from you.

Best Wishes for now

Matt

Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Mary Carter
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 11 November 17 08:44 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt,

Oops, "Thomas of Stelling..." was my bad and a holdover from having just answered Grandarog's query about the existence of a parish named Stelling.  I have since modified it in my original post to read "...Thomas of Selling...".

Susan
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KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
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Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Mary Carter
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 11 November 17 09:14 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt,

Quote
By the way I have not found any reference to a Will for Thomas Carter. Do you think there may be one?

No, I don't believe there are Wills for several of the direct line Carter men after George Carter left his Will in 1599.  George, son of George (d 1599), was the eldest a the Will of 1599 did a fine job of circumventing the provisions of gavelkind and in its place installing a system of strict entail for Winchcomb.  The remaining sons each received money and other pieces of land in different parishes.

George, son of George (d 1599) only had one son, Thomas (chr 1558 at Crundale d within days of his father in 1603).  This Thomas had 3 sons so the operation of the grandfather's Will would continue in regard to the property willed back in 1599. 

However, both George and Thomas each left a Will, vizt.

Will   Carter   Thomas   Crundale   made 1603   probated 1603   PRC/17/53/132   PRC/16/122 C/8   -1603

Will   Carter, Cartter   George   Crundale   made 1603   probated 1603   PRC/17/53/126   PRC/16/122 C/18-1603

Both Archdeaconry Court of Canterbury.  I do not have these Wills on hand.

The Thomas Carter who married Isabel Ruck does not appear to have left a Will.  Nor will the Wills of the Carters who died in 1603 be helpful to proving the relationships between Thomas Carter, his parents and Isabel Ruck  and her daughter's Watson children as all of those events occurred long after the two Carter men died during 1603.

Susan


CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
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Offline MattD30

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Re: Mary Carter
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 11 November 17 13:50 GMT (UK) »
Hi Susan

I think I might have found something which confirms the link between William Watson's wife Mary Carter and the Thomas Carter who married Isabel Ruck.

Both of William's parents, Ham[m]on and Ann Watson left wills, which were proved in the PCC. I was re-reading Hamon's Will last night and noticed a familiar name. It looks like the Will was witnessed by a Symon Rucke senior. Originally I had thought this name was Symon Ruckson or Rurckson but upon closer inspection it looks more like "Rurcke Snr" or "Rurke Senr".

If this is the case then it would seem to confirm the link between the families. I don't know how Symon fits in to Isabel's family but could he be a brother? If the Watson and Ruck/Carter families knew each other then it makes sense that one of Hamon Watson's sons married Mary Carter, daughter of Thomas Carter and Isabel Rucke.

I have tried to attach an image of the name from the end of Hamon Watson's Will but for some reason it isn't loading here (I'm in a coffee shop so perhaps it's the internet connection) so I will try to add it in a follow up post.

I definitely think there is a link here as there seems to be more and more evidence. Do you have any more details on each of the Carter family groups or the Rucke line? It would be good to be able to build up a tree and see them in more detail.

Anyhow that's all for now.

Matt