Author Topic: Ceres,Fife marriage 1834  (Read 1850 times)

Offline the happy granny

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Ceres,Fife marriage 1834
« on: Wednesday 03 August 05 11:38 BST (UK) »
Could someone please help me with the following query?

My 3xGt. Grandparents Ann Peat and Thomas Smith were married on August 1 1834 in Ceres.

I have a copy of the page from the Proclamations of Banns and Marriages and there are six marriages on the page.
They all give the grooms name,occupation and brides name followed by "of this parish"............but five of them say who married the bride and groom and on which date they were married...........except on my Gx3 grandparents entry.

Why would this be?...................the IGI gives the marriage date as August 1 1834.......but is the information I have just the Banns..........and were they married at all?

Any help/ views would be much appreciated
thanks
Sue
Gourlay,Peat,Porter,Smith,Kirk, from Ceres,Cupar,Kennoway,Fife
Coley,from Barcombe,Sussex
Cozens from Kingston Russel,Symonds from Symondsbury,Dorset
Catchpole,from Norfolk,London (Fulham)
Lock/e,from Somerset and London (Pimlico) Everett from Portsmouth and Alvechurch,Worcester
Carr/Wandes....Hampshire
Spicer,Fry,Fosher,Coulter,Burridge,Brewster,Hancock, Lotter from Kent and London Borders
Holloway from Sussex

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Offline Fife Lass

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Re: Ceres,Fife marriage 1834
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 23 October 05 00:58 BST (UK) »
Sorry unable to help with your enquiry, but have the same problem as my 3 x great grandparents are also Ann Peat and Thomas Smith form Ceres.
As Ceres is small place was wondering if they could be the same people. 
Bayne, Dempsey, MacKenzie, McKay, McKenzie, Smith, Timmons, Watson

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Offline JAP

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Re: Ceres,Fife marriage 1834
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 23 October 05 04:13 BST (UK) »
Hi Sue,

The IGI does not differentiate between Proclamation of Banns and Marriages.  So, just by looking at the IGI, one does not know whether or not the marriage actually took place.  Indeed, I suspect that most of the entries relate to the date of Proclamation of Banns and thus do not reflect an actual date of a Marriage or whether the Marriage took place (though in most cases it probably did).

But here is an example of one which didn't.
From the IGI:
Marriage, Andrew HOSE and Marion MCBLANE 11 Apr 1819 Dalrymple Ayr Scotland
Marriage, Andrew HOSE and Isabella DUFF 22 Nov 1819 Dalrymple Ayr Scotland

From this one might think that there must have been two chaps named Andrew HOSE in Dalrymple and that both married in the same year.
But the actual church register reveals a different story.
Click Here
*April 11th ... Andrew Hose and Marion McBlane, both of this Parish, were proclaimed but not married
*November 22nd ... Andrew Hose and Isabella Duff, both of this Parish, were married.


However, quite often the films of the church registers are no help - the registers just record the Proclamation of Banns with no indication of when, or whether or not, the Marriages actually took place.

And remember that, though the Banns were proclaimed in Church (meant to be in the parishes of both bride and groom if they were different, and meant to be on three successive Sundays - but that didn't always happen), the actual marriage was possibly celebrated in the Manse, or in the bride's home, and possibly not by the Minister of the parish where the Banns were proclaimed.  So the Minister of the parish where the Banns were proclaimed may not actually have known when or even whether the marriage took place.

Even when the church register does record that the marriage took place, often it does not give the actual marriage date.

For example:
The Dalgety Fife Parish Register in 1843 reads:
"Maclure & Philp. 13th Oct 1843 which day Alexander Maclure Eastwood parish and Jane Philp in this parish gave up their names for proclamation in order to marriage and after being regularly proclaimed were married by Mr Hemming(?) Inverkeithing".
It does not state the actual date of marriage.

So you really can't tell when or whether Thomas SMITH and Ann PEAT were married.

However, did they have children baptized and entered in the church register?  If they did, and if the children were recorded as "lawful", that would indicate that the Minister knew they had actually been married and with benefit of clergy.  Otherwise, the Ministers had the 'delightful' habit of describing the child as 'natural' or using wordings like 'in fornication', etc.

The words 'with benefit of clergy' are relevant.  Even if Thomas and Ann were not married by a Minister they could well have been quite legally married under Scots Law.  Scots Law viewed marriage essentially as a contract between two people.  Three forms of marriage were recognised:
(a) two people agreeing to marriage in front of witnesses (and marriage by a Minister was essentially a form of that)
(b) marriage by habit and repute (e.g. a couple who lived together, had children together, and were viewed as man and wife by their community)
(c) a promise of marriage followed by consummation.

The Church couldn't gainsay the Law but it chose to describe marriages with benefit of clergy as 'Regular' and all other marriages as 'Irregular'.  This was an unpleasant - in my view - choice of words which even passed into official usage when Statutory Registration was introduced in 1855.  This did not cease until the Marriage (Scotland) Act of 1939 came into force in July 1940!

Cheers,

JAP


Offline the happy granny

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Re: Ceres,Fife marriage 1834
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 23 October 05 11:30 BST (UK) »
Hi Fife Lass and JAP

Fife Lass.........have sent you a PM as I am sure they must be the same people!!

JAP.................you are quite right about the children they were baptised in the church.........their father is listed.........and they are lawful.

Another rellie on the other side of the family was illegitimate and this is stated on her birth,marriage and death certificate................poor girl.........she would be proud that some members of the family have carried on the tradition!!!! There is nothing on Ann's death certificate (except pauper)

The page I have is from the Parish Records............there are several Banns on the page...........all filled in with the Ministers name after the marriage except Ann's so I thought it was strange...........but now I have read your explanation it is much clearer.

Thanks a million for your help

Sue
Gourlay,Peat,Porter,Smith,Kirk, from Ceres,Cupar,Kennoway,Fife
Coley,from Barcombe,Sussex
Cozens from Kingston Russel,Symonds from Symondsbury,Dorset
Catchpole,from Norfolk,London (Fulham)
Lock/e,from Somerset and London (Pimlico) Everett from Portsmouth and Alvechurch,Worcester
Carr/Wandes....Hampshire
Spicer,Fry,Fosher,Coulter,Burridge,Brewster,Hancock, Lotter from Kent and London Borders
Holloway from Sussex

Offline the happy granny

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Re: Ceres,Fife marriage 1834
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 23 October 05 14:25 BST (UK) »
Yes Fife Lass and I are related........through a branch of the family we (my branch) didn't know existed.   :)

The euphoria has kicked in for me......and several members of my family  ::)

Don't you just love it when family tree's sprout another branch?

I look forward to exchanging lots of information across the border.

Rootschat triumphs again!!    ;)

Sue
Gourlay,Peat,Porter,Smith,Kirk, from Ceres,Cupar,Kennoway,Fife
Coley,from Barcombe,Sussex
Cozens from Kingston Russel,Symonds from Symondsbury,Dorset
Catchpole,from Norfolk,London (Fulham)
Lock/e,from Somerset and London (Pimlico) Everett from Portsmouth and Alvechurch,Worcester
Carr/Wandes....Hampshire
Spicer,Fry,Fosher,Coulter,Burridge,Brewster,Hancock, Lotter from Kent and London Borders
Holloway from Sussex

Offline JAP

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Re: Ceres,Fife marriage 1834
« Reply #5 on: Monday 24 October 05 15:55 BST (UK) »
Hi Sue,

How very exciting for you to match up with a rell on RootsChat!

Sorry to have gone on at such length about my own understanding of marriage in Scotland - pretty long-winded and boring, eh!  But I'd seen so much misleading stuff posted on so many lists/forums over the years that, a couple of years back, I discarded everything I'd read and did my own research on the topic from scratch.

If I were you, in the light of the baptisms of their 'lawful' children, I would have no doubt that Thomas and Ann were married and with benefit of clergy.  Perhaps the lack of a marriage date for them vis-a-vis the others on the page was simply an oversight on the part of the Minister or was because he didn't know or didn't remember where and when the marriage took place.

All the best to you and Fife Lass as you extend your family tree(s).

Cheers,

JAP
PS: Re the example I quoted where Gentleman A and Lady A were proclaimed but not married, and a few months later Gentleman A and Lady B were proclaimed and were then married, there was a pretty good reason for this.  Gentleman A and Lady B had had a child together about a year before the proclamation of marriage between Gentleman A and Lady A.  I guess the Proclamation of Banns did the job it was meant to do in this instance!     

Offline the happy granny

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Re: Ceres,Fife marriage 1834
« Reply #6 on: Monday 24 October 05 17:13 BST (UK) »
Thanks for that JAP................photo's of Great Grandads have already been exchanged!!  ;D

cheers

Sue
Gourlay,Peat,Porter,Smith,Kirk, from Ceres,Cupar,Kennoway,Fife
Coley,from Barcombe,Sussex
Cozens from Kingston Russel,Symonds from Symondsbury,Dorset
Catchpole,from Norfolk,London (Fulham)
Lock/e,from Somerset and London (Pimlico) Everett from Portsmouth and Alvechurch,Worcester
Carr/Wandes....Hampshire
Spicer,Fry,Fosher,Coulter,Burridge,Brewster,Hancock, Lotter from Kent and London Borders
Holloway from Sussex

Offline the happy granny

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Re: Ceres,Fife marriage 1834
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 25 October 05 22:57 BST (UK) »
In my euphoria I got the relationship between Fife Lass and myself a little confused!!   ::)

We are more closely related than I thought..............our Great Grandads were brothers........ ;D

Sue
Gourlay,Peat,Porter,Smith,Kirk, from Ceres,Cupar,Kennoway,Fife
Coley,from Barcombe,Sussex
Cozens from Kingston Russel,Symonds from Symondsbury,Dorset
Catchpole,from Norfolk,London (Fulham)
Lock/e,from Somerset and London (Pimlico) Everett from Portsmouth and Alvechurch,Worcester
Carr/Wandes....Hampshire
Spicer,Fry,Fosher,Coulter,Burridge,Brewster,Hancock, Lotter from Kent and London Borders
Holloway from Sussex

Offline JuneLocke

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Re: Ceres,Fife marriage 1834
« Reply #8 on: Monday 31 July 17 21:55 BST (UK) »
Ann Peat and Thomas Smith are my g.g.grandparents too.  My paternal grandmother was the daughter of Ann and Thomas's younger son Robert.

June
Anderson / Duff / Nicholson / Methven  (Cameron & Kilconquhar)
Smith / Wilson /  Peat  (St. andrews, Ceres, Cupar)
Hutchison / Auld  (Edinburgh)
Fullerton / Henderson. (Midlothian, Peeblesshire, Berwickshire)
McKay / Manson ( Tongue, Braetongue Sutherland)
Locke / Wahl / Aitchison / Becker (Edinburgh)